What if Vegans are Actually Right?

[laklak]

If they graze in a soybean field they're certainly shit them out, but I don't know if that's the same thing.

[Scot Dutchy]

If it was not for the cattle industry there would not be enough soya beans.

Back to your question Brian. Is veganism a philosophy? I would not agree with that as any fad is not a philosophy. It is just that a fad. A fashion. The fact it requires special food of doubtful origins is neither here nor there. Being organic is also a way of life. Just in the same way. I demand traceable produce that is my philosophy in food.
In my supermarket there is a new label system on the shelves which are all connected to the shop's computer with Wi-Fi. The label frames show the type of food. Bright green is organic, light blue the most economic and dark green vegan. We dont have any colour for kosher food or halal food. Is that discrimination? The same was true of my company restaurant. There was no distinction made with the various foods as it was your choice.
If vegans would answer the basic questions about their food choice and stop ducking behind "the poor animals" I have and many people no time for them.
Veganism is a new phenomenon. Not until in 1944 when Donald Watson took to the word vegetarianism and made it smaller for ease of spelling it did not exist. Also chemical companies by that time were able to produce vitamin tablets that compensated for the shortages in the diet.
In my book that was a ridiculous court decision and has open the gate for other strange beings to claim that they discriminated. Luckily it will not happen here.
The Dutch have a great saying: "Doe normaal dat is gek genoeg". In the UK these days is very applicable.

[Brian Peacock]

If it was not for the cattle industry there would not be enough soya beans.

I call bullshit on this reductive fallacy! Soya products for humans don't depend on surplus production from agriculture but on additional production.

Back to your question Brian. Is veganism a philosophy? I would not agree with that as any fad is not a philosophy. It is just that a fad. A fashion.

Veganism is broadly an ethical system which informs how people lead their lives - that is, it forms its basis in ideas that lead people to make particular decisions and to act or not act, to behave, in particular ways. Whether one thinks about that in terms of morality and ethics, what's is good/not-good, or in terms of politics, what should/should not be the case depending on what is good/not-good, as "a theory or attitude that acts as a guiding principle for behaviour" ethical veganism clearly qualifies as a philosophy, and splitting hairs about it, or simply asserting the contrary, doesn't change that.

The fact it requires special food of doubtful origins is neither here nor there. Being organic is also a way of life. Just in the same way. I demand traceable produce that is my philosophy in food.

As you say, your low opinion of vegans is neither here nor there. The question is: should employers be allowed to discriminate against vegan employees on the basis of their employees' veganism?

You're going to some lengths to avoid giving an honest answer to that one, and one can only assume, given your intolerance and vilification of vegans, that you're actually OK with vegans being discriminated against in the workplace - you just can't bring yourself to say it out loud, though you show no reticence in arguing for the moral rectitude, political correctness, and health imperatives of your own dietary choices...

In my supermarket there is a new label system on the shelves which are all connected to the shop's computer with Wi-Fi. The label frames show the type of food. Bright green is organic, light blue the most economic and dark green vegan. We dont have any colour for kosher food or halal food. Is that discrimination?

This kind of irrelevant guff is why I suggested you were channelling the spirit of 42, errant bum custard which casts a tolerance of something like veganism as fundamentally intolerant, hypocritical, prejudiced or discriminatory.

If you object to the food labelling decisions of supermarkets and want to hold someone to account take it up with the store manager, the marketing department or the board of directors. Just stop pretending that vegans are somehow oppressing you by compelling others to cater to their choices on the high street.

If vegans would answer the basic questions about their food choice and stop ducking behind "the poor animals" I have and many people no time for them.

Again with the 42isms, here erecting spurious personal condition which vegans are charged with meeting in order for you to personally validate their existence, as if you are the sole or ultimate arbiter of all food choices. Some people don't eat mushrooms because they're grown on faecal matter: how do you feel about that? Is that a valid food choice?

I'm going to keep reminding your that your personal approval or disapproval of the philosophy and decisions of vegans is 'neither here nor there' - the question is: should employers be allowed to discriminate against vegan employees on the basis of their employees' veganism? Still waiting...

Veganism is a new phenomenon. Not until in 1944 when Donald Watson took to the word vegetarianism and made it smaller for ease of spelling it did not exist. Also chemical companies by that time were able to produce vitamin tablets that compensated for the shortages in the diet.

Pah! You do know that food is made out of chemicals don't you?

If you think it's unnatural for someone to mitigate a nutritional deficit by taking a tablet then do you think that paracetamol for pain relief, anti-biotics for bacterial infections and vaccines for communicable diseases are unnatural too? Well, of course you don't, because you're applying a double-standard based on a subjective judgement about the character and motivation of a particular group of people who make particular dietary choices.

I've been a vegetarian since my mid-twenties, more than half my life. I prevent myself developing Vitamin B12 deficiency with over-the-counter supplements. By your lights this makes me unnaturally health - and yet, I'm healthy, so what's unnatural about that? After routine blood tests in my mid-thirties I've also been supplementing my vitamin D because like most people who live above/below 36° I was found to be vitamin D deficient. Again, is taking a remedy for a deficiency unnatural, and if so what's the proper definition of 'natural' and 'healthy'?

In my book that was a ridiculous court decision and has open the gate for other strange beings to claim that they discriminated. Luckily it will not happen here.

The employment tribunal decided that an employer had discriminated against an employee based on their veganism. In these particular circumstance the tribunal judged that the political and/or ethical perspective of the employee, and the employer's response to that perspective, met the conventionalities of 'discrimination' under the 2010 Equality Act which legally protects people from discrimination in the workplace and in wider society. The important thing to take from this is that the tribunal recognised and acknowledged the political and/or ethical dimension of some vegan's veganism while affirming that sacking someone on the basis of their politics and/or ethics was a discriminatory practice.

So, you consider yourself lucky that you live in a society where an official body like an employment tribunal would not or could not ever make that kind of judgement, a society where vegans can be discriminated against on the basis of their veganism. Therefore you clearly think that employers should be allowed to discriminate against people based on their dietary choices. I guess that's the answer to my question right there, eh?

However, I don't think you'd accept that kind of discrimination if it were applied to you on the basis of your dietary choices - would you(?) So if you think that withholding a portion of some people's rights and discriminating against them should be allowed for others, such as vegans, but definitely should not be applied to people like yourself, middle-class organo-obssesives, then you've just defined yourself as someone who applies a double-standard and is intolerant of and/or prejudiced against people who don't share your views, values or opinions. As I mentioned earlier, I'm sure you'll know the word for that kind of person.

The Dutch have a great saying: "Doe normaal dat is gek genoeg". In the UK these days is very applicable.

We have a similar saying here: "Call yourself normal, I'll call your liar!" You're about as normal as normal gets - which is to say you're as normal as me or anyone else.

What you think you're arguing for is the normalcy of your dietary choices, while in fact your arguing for the normativity of your dietary choices. This distinction is important, and it is in the conflation of the latter for the former where hypocrisy sits and gloats.

[Scot Dutchy]

It is a misuse of the law Brian. Veganism is new. It never existed. A philosophy? Please dont insult. You are the one going on on about discrimination. You are really I am sorry to say laughable. You admit they need chemicals to live but try to throw that off as being a couple of aspirins. It is not a healthy diet. Employers here do not discriminate on dietary choices. They supply generally accepted good quality food and it is up to you to take or leave it. Bring in your own if you dont like it, plenty do.
It is a fad Brian and 10years it will have disappeared. There is no discrimination. You take it or leave it but vegans love to be a pain in the arse. You are really insulting comparing me to 42. Is it because your arguments are so weak.
Vegans have no case. They are simply the newest form of society fuckers. I pity their kids.
Here they dont get a foot on the ground and that is the way it should be. Let them do their thing but dont impose it on us.

[Svartalf]

I call bullshit on veganism, their main bit is that we must not eat meat or use animal products because they are squeamish about animals being killed... thing is, plants are living too, and the more we study them, the more they seem to be feeling, and even communicating living creaturess... so what's the huge difference between a cow or sheep and a sheaf of wheat or a carrot, or a potato or soybeans that we may eat the others but should eschew the ones?

[Scot Dutchy]

I call bullshit on veganism, their main bit is that we must not eat meat or use animal products because they are squeamish about animals being killed... thing is, plants are living too, and the more we study them, the more they seem to be feeling, and even communicating living creaturess... so what's the huge difference between a cow or sheep and a sheaf of wheat or a carrot, or a potato or soybeans that we may eat the others but should eschew the ones?

I entirely and wholeheartedly agree. Killing vegetables is ok; it is grown for our consumption. Do we know what vegetables suffer? Vegans have no idea. Just the poor little animals. How many butterflies, mice an birds suffer for their food. They cant get it. Do you realise Brian how much soya beans need and all the other beans? All the fertilisers and sprays.
How about clothes? Plastic is ok? I never wear plastic but they do. Once again here we go. FFS Brian dont you fucking realise you are being screwed by companies that want to keep the vegan myth.
Just give me evidence that it is a healthy diet. Without pills of course.

[Brian Peacock]

It is a misuse of the law Brian.

Protecting people from discrimination in the workplace is exactly what the law should be doing in a free and fair system, wouldn't you agree?

Veganism is new. It never existed.

So are transgender and non-binary identity, relatively speaking. Should the law have nothing to say about protecting the rights of these and other minority groups either? The relative 'newness' of veganism should not place a bar on the protection of vegans' rights. However, if you feel that it should then at what point does veganism stop being new? Does the attested veganism of long-dead Greek philosophers like Empedocles, Theophrastus, Plutarch, Plotinus, and Porphyry make veganism old or new I wonder?

A philosophy? Please dont insult.

Please don't be insulted. Ethical veganism clearly encompasses a theory or attitude that acts as a guiding principle for behaviour. If that's not a philosophy then what dictionary are you using?

You are the one going on on about discrimination.

You know how that sounds don't you(?) We're having a discussion about discrimination in the workplace. You're 'going on about discrimination' at least as much as me! And besides, I'm just correcting your misrepresentation of 'discrimination' under the UK Equality Act 2010--which is consistent with the European and UN declarations on human rights--while challenging your assumptions that you can't really discriminate against a vegan because veganism isn't a real thing and therefore vegans don't warrant or deserve protection from discrimination under the law.

You are really I am sorry to say laughable.

You admit they need chemicals to live...

Everyone needs chemicals to live, because food is made out of chemicals and digestion and absorption are bio-chemical processes. All biology is chemistry.

...but try to throw that off as being a couple of aspirins.

Nutritional supplements supplement nutritional deficits. it's a fact. If anyone is nutritionally deficient in B12 they should probably take supplements. Non-vegans also become deficient in B12 so they should take supplements just as those deficient in Vitamin D or those deficient in Thyroxine should. In such cases it's healthier to than not.

It is not a healthy diet.

Non-vegans who are lactose intolerant are not unhealthy if they take care of their nutritional requirements. You're confusing culinary ingredients for a healthy diet and/or life-style.

Employers here do not discriminate on dietary choices.

That's nice, but irrelevant to the matter at hand because the report concerned an employer who did discriminate against someone based on their political/ethical viewpoint.

They supply generally accepted good quality food and it is up to you to take or leave it. Bring in your own if you dont like it, plenty do.

It's good to know that nobody is forcing anyone to eat anything they don't want to, but you still continue to imply that vegans are somehow oppressing you by compelling the supermarkets or employers to cater to their needs. Is that really what's going on or have you started reading the Daily Mail again?

I would suggest that the majority of restaurants and eateries in the UK offer at least one vegetarian option - most offer more that one. Most places now offer at least one vegan option too - not because vegans are oppressing anyone or forcing them into it but simply because vegans exists, eat out, and spend money. You can even get vegan options at McDonalds these days, but let's not pretend that someone is forcing you eat it if you don't want to - any more than they're forcing you go to McDonald's in the first place. Every coffee shop large or small offers an plant-based alternative to cow's milk now. Does the idea that someone might choose or prefer an Oat Milk Choccy Mocha upset you that much, really?

It is a fad Brian and 10years it will have disappeared.

Your blind assertion is, as you say, 'neither here nor there'.

There is no discrimination.

I'd say it was pretty discriminatory to deny people who make vegan dietary or consumer choices the same rights as anybody else, but I can understand why you wouldn't.

You take it or leave it but vegans love to be a pain in the arse.

I'm sorry for any rectal discomfort the existence of vegans has caused you.

You are really insulting comparing me to 42.

I explained why I thought the comparison what applicable in this case, on this issue. Feel free to address those remarks specifically or, alternatively, you could just stop whinging about it and take responsibility for what you wrote.

Is it because your arguments are so weak.

Feel free to expose the weaknesses in my arguments by all means. Hint: Simply having an opinion doesn't quite cut the mustard I'm afraid.

Vegans have no case. They are simply the newest form of society fuckers.

Vegans don't have to make a case, just a free choice, but do feel free to explain how the existence of vegans is fucking society. I'm all ears.

I pity their kids.

Hmmm. I'm sure they worry about that a lot.

Here they dont get a foot on the ground and that is the way it should be.

People used to say exactly the same thing about the Blacks and the Irish didn't they, and those uppity queer folk who found the 'wrong' people attractive or felt like they were living in the wrong body? The times they are a-changing old timer, like they always have. Your reactionary conservative mindset is just having trouble keeping up that's all...

Let them do their thing but dont impose it on us.

Spoken like a true Veganophobe!

[Scot Dutchy]

The age old method Brian. Take a line for line. It does not work anymore Brian.
Short on arguments as always. There is no justification for veganism. It is a fad! Do you understand what a fad is?
Typical you cant give any evidence.
Brian answer a simple question: Is veganism healthy? Just put that into google. It is not but yet vegans want to impose their impossible life style onto the rest of us.
Your arguments old son are so weak I would not walk out in the rain with them.
Vegans are not a race so dont compare them to blacks and Irish. Their closest brethren are the scientologists.
Once again you have lost the argument. Vegans are vegans out of their choice and just accept society for what it is. If they want to live by completely mad ideas that is up to them but why should society bend to them?

[Scot Dutchy]

How many vegans in Nederland? We have 17 million people. What would you think Brian how many vegans?

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

121,000. Such a number.

Come on who is kidding who. Far more people fart at night or take cold showers.

[Scot Dutchy]

How many animals have they saved? Not of course counting those killed by the spraying of soya beans.
I cant find any defence for the spraying of soya beans. Organic soya beans? Never found them.
The packets of soya beans in my organic supermarket says in very tiny print: We try to maintain organic supply but if unable our packets are filled with market soya beans. In other words they are the heavily sprayed variety.
The same is printed on all the different beans. They eat rubbish!

[Scot Dutchy]

Ever talked to a vegan? They are mental depressives. The world is all wrong. The ones I talked to were not involved in world politics. Trump? Hardly known. Cows and milk and you get a great recital of vegan so called values. It is poor sickening. I really worry about their kids as does the department of education.

[Brian Peacock]

[Scot Dutchy]

Yeah Brian it sums up your arguments perfectly. Vegetables dont have feelings.

[Brian Peacock]

It's OK Scot, you can wear this anti-vegan charm bracelet to ward off the evilz...

[laklak]

Fuck I love bacon.