Hong Kong

[laklak]

So Hong Kong Chinese are waving American flags, and rich NFL players take a knee in protest.

Go fucking figure.

[Hermit]

Do evil empires normally exercise this much care in dealing with such widespread protests? These fuckers shut down an airport ffs.

Evil empire to evil empire: we might learn a thing or two from these guys.

China lined up their armoured cars outside the city gates before you even posted this. I predict that if Hong Kong's internal security forces fail to get the protesters off the streets within the next fortnight or thereabouts, the Chinese army will - Tienanmen Square style.

That will be unfortunate. But it's hardly evidence of evil. They have been incredibly patient so far, haven't they?

Yes, they have. They have been incredibly patient with the protesters on Tiananmen Square in 1989 too - until they massacred about 300 (official Chinese government "information") of them. Other estimates range from 478 (Beijing hospital records) to 2,700–3,400 (British ambassador Sir Alan Donald). You have to go back to 1970 to find anything resembling the event in the US. That's when 28 guardsmen of the Ohio National Guard shot dead four protesters at the Kent State University.

[Sean Hayden]

Hardly. Unless you think killing others is somehow less evil than killing your own.

Besides, you've got no way of knowing what would happen here.

Anyway, you're a China's an evil empire guy too eh?

[JimC]

Do evil empires normally exercise this much care in dealing with such widespread protests? These fuckers shut down an airport ffs.

Evil empire to evil empire: we might learn a thing or two from these guys.

I think that the protesters have been foolish and somewhat irresponsible in their actions, and have no chance in hell of achieving independence, or even any more autonomy than they already have. However, it's also abundantly clear that China is an authoritarian state, one that is doing a variety of nasty things to minority groups such as the Uighars (sp?). It's not beyond the pale to term them an evil empire...

I agree that China has shown somewhat more patience than I would have expected. Possibly, they are waiting until most people in Hong Kong are tired of the disruption and economic downturn caused by the protests, so that intervention will not be resented as much.

I admire the protesters. Your criteria for declaring China evil leaves your own country somewhat exposed.

There hearts are probably in the right place, but they were irresponsible in their actions at the airport, and totally in fantasy land if they think they can withstand the PLA when it finally rolls.

And whatever the ills of my own government's actions, that is not relevant to reasoned commentary on the actions of China.

[Sean Hayden]

Sure it is. Don't call them evil for mistreating some while your country sends people to offshore concentration camps. That seems like a universally good idea to me.

Or are you of the opinion that being labeled an "evil empire" has no consequences for the Chinese? Or just that you'd like to avoid them for you and yours?

[JimC]

Sure it is. Don't call them evil for mistreating some while your country sends people to offshore concentration camps. That seems like a universally good idea to me.

Or are you of the opinion that being labeled an "evil empire" has no consequences for the Chinese? Or just that you'd like to avoid them for you and yours?

You missed the point. Of course I'm critical of my own country's treatment of refugees, but I don't see the logic that its actions means I cannot observe and comment on the actions of China, condemned by virtually everyone around the world - I'm not in some bizarre minority here...

And the Chinese government, at least, seems totally indifferent to any criticisms. Behind the Great Chinese Internet Firewall, most of its citizens would be unaware of outside criticism, or if aware would regard it as proof that the evil capitalists are ganging up on the mother country. None of which is relevant to whether a critique of the Chinese authoritarian state is justified or not...

[Sean Hayden]

Anyone can observe and comment about any other country. I took exception to your use of evil.

I don't think you should be comfortable being in the majority on this one Jim.

[Sean Hayden]

China, the evil empire:

In China, the central government has overall responsibility for national health legislation, policy, and administration. It is guided by the principle that every citizen is entitled to receive basic health care services, with local governments—provinces, prefectures, cities, counties, and towns—responsible for providing them, with variations for local circumstances.

They've supposedly got something like 95% covered and are working towards 100%.

Today, Chinese youth (15-24 years) have a 99% literacy rate.

They have made big moves in education. But I did read something about still not teaching innovation and creativity. Not that I believe that for a second. Honestly I was shocked to still see that old propaganda floating around.

In 2009, China’s total financial commitment to development aid reached a whopping $69.9 billion, two times that of the U.S. foreign aid in the same year.

A large chunk of China’s aid is categorized by AidData as “Other Official Flows,” indicating that though counted as foreign aid, these financial assistances are primarily intended for commercial access rather than for development and welfare.

Not exactly sure why aid given to increase "commercial access" isn't also considered aid to development and welfare. Anyway it's a lot of money regardless. They just sent some aid to Yemen recently too right?

In a recent article, we explored the slow pace of high-speed rail (HSR) development in the United States and found that a combination of issues, from corporate greed to general bureaucracy, have been major obstacles. In stark contrast, there is no doubt that China has deployed HSR at a pace unlike any country so far in history.

Where's that Green New Deal!

Even though China is the first developing country to meet the UN’s millennium development goal of halving the population living in poverty by 2015, official statistics still put more than 70 million rural residents below the poverty line – an annual income of 2,300 yuan (HK$2,790) – at the end of last year.

Raising them above it by 2020, in accordance with the guidelines of the draft 13th five-year plan endorsed by the fifth plenum of the Communist Party Central Committee, is likely to be hardest task of poverty alleviation, because they tend to be stranded in remote rural areas or confronted with difficulties they cannot overcome without extra help.

The more I read about these guys the more I hate them. They're evil I tells ya!

Yeah, yeah, it's just a list and not an argument. But it is food for thought.

[JimC]

You do know that I'm using the "Evil Empire" tag with a good dash of humorous hyperbole. And you guys (well, Reagan) invented the term, so it's your fuckin' fault!

[Hermit]

Hardly. Unless you think killing others is somehow less evil than killing your own.

Besides, you've got no way of knowing what would happen here.

Anyway, you're a China's an evil empire guy too eh?

Try the forum's handy advanced search facility. You won't find me describing China (or Russia for that matter) as evil, at least not more evil as any other. In my opinion all governments will use any Machiavellian means they think they can get away with, and I alluded to that in this post.

[Sean Hayden]

I'm just going bonkers Jim, Hermit. I'll be back to normal in a few days.

--if I'm too annoying, see psycho's sig

[JimC]

The "evil" part is totally in regard to the control they exert over their citizens, the lack of any real political freedom, their desire to control every part of the China Sea (despite the claims of all other countries bordering it) and particularly their treatment of muslim minorities. The other stuff you quoted shows that there can be real benefits from a centrally planned economy in areas such as education and health care, and they are also probably moving faster towards renewables than many other countries.

So, not evil all the way through, but evil enough...

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, I get that. I'm an American, I wanna call my congressman if I get pulled over. This is my road --freedom!

[pErvinalia]

So Hong Kong Chinese are waving American flags, and rich NFL players take a knee in protest.

Go fucking figure.

The want some FREEDUM!

[pErvinalia]

Sure it is.

No it's not.