Extinction Rebellion

[Svartalf]

I thought Dutchfolk, like most Germanic folk, to be workaholics.

[Scot Dutchy]

I thought Dutchfolk, like most Germanic folk, to be workaholics.

Workaholics are British and Americans where coming home at 10 after 12 hours "work" is a badge of honour. Germans and Dutch are efficient workers. A slight nuance difference.

(I cant turn off my Dutch mind this morning. I am translating all this. Weird. )

[Svartalf]

well, nice to see my preconceptions challenged.

[Scot Dutchy]

The Dutch recognised the benefits of shorter hours working in the sixties and seventies. After slaving away at rebuilding the country after the war. They wanted time to enjoy what they had achieved and the socialist government at the time gave them the opportunity and the employers soon realised a basic simple fact; a happy worker is a good efficient worker.
The same story was mirrored in Germany.

[Svartalf]

Well, we saw the light only in the 90s, but we see it, the French like enjoying life over slaving at their work... but we like good work.

[Scot Dutchy]

The British and Americans will never see the light.

[Svartalf]

OTOH, they might spend longer hours but are less efficient.

[Scot Dutchy]

OTOH, they might spend longer hours but are less efficient.

But that is the whole point. Working long hours is inefficient. Plan and enjoy your life. The Dutch are good at that.

[Brian Peacock]

Bollocks. Those with a surfeit of economic, political and social capital invariably determine the conditions of existence for the rest. The British or The Americans are no more inclined to wage-slavery than the French, Dutch, Germans, or Chinese. Again Scot you confuse culture for character, and offer a simplistic condemnation of the former by a bad faith representation of the latter. While the Dutch may have balanced the interests of power slightly more in favour of the powerless it's still essentially a Capitalist society - and thus those tensions between the powerful and the powerless are a manifest and ongoing feature of the society, as they are of all Western societies.

The point here is that evidence seems to suggest that reducing working hours reduces carbon footprints, makes people more productive, and enhances individual happiness. The downside to this idea is that it would mean regulating the model of rapid and perpetual fiscal growth which comprises the West's current economic systems far more in favour of sustainability and individual well-being and far less towards the interests of capital - which of course Capitalists resist for the same reason they resist paying decent wages, paying tax, cleaning up after themselves, unions and, given half the chance, democracy.

[Scot Dutchy]

Bollocks. Totally disagree. A very anglo-saxon perspective if I must say but there you go. Take off those very damaged spectacles. You are using a the wrong large brush. Northern European countries have achieved far more in social democracy than the UK has. It sticks in the throat does it not to realise how backward work conditions in the UK are compared to the other more enlightened countries.

[Rum]

Rather than falling back, as usual, on your prejudices and prejudging the facts irrespective of what they say, here’s an interesting report.

It shows that working conditions vary a great deal across Europe. A couple of stand out facts: German workers don’t feel as valued as one would have expected and feel unappreciated by the bosses.

Oh - and workers in the Netherlands were more fearful of losing their jobs in the next year than those in...er..Britain.

Oh - the scores for ‘low quality’ jobs were 18 for the UK and 23 for the Netherlands (where lower is better). There are also significantly more ‘high flying’ jobs here apparently.

‘The EWCS shows that working conditions can vary significantly when considering different aspects of working life, and pre-conceptions about national economic performance and job quality can be shown to be somewhat misleading when the facts are looked at in detail. It is for this reason that evidence-based research is so important for policy initiatives in Europe.’

https://www.socialeurope.eu/europes-per ... us-germany

[Scot Dutchy]

Another great unbiased source. Get a grip man.

Scraping the barrel but am I surprised? No.

[Brian Peacock]

Bollocks. Totally disagree. A very anglo-saxon perspective if I must say but there you go. Take off those very damaged spectacles. You are using a the wrong large brush. Northern European countries have achieved far more in social democracy than the UK has. It sticks in the throat does it not to realise how backward work conditions in the UK are compared to the other more enlightened countries.

Double-bollocks! I'm afraid it was not I who wielding the tar brush to blame the victims of Capitalism in the UK and the US for participating in a system they have little to no control over, nor did I pin that on some nebulous and abstract assumption about the national character, that so-called 'anglo-saxon mindset'.

So what are you actually disagreeing with here?

Sure, I think that employment practices in the UK are pretty patchy to poor, and indeed that the Tories have overseen a kind of Uber-isation of the labour market that has done far more harm to society than the bottom-line boost to corporate profits show. I also think there should be significant constitutional reform and a fair transition towards a sustainable economy involving the redistribution of power through the development of new democratic institutions. But your idea that this sticks in my craw, that I'm actually jealous that the UK isn't the Netherlands, is, frankly, as childish as it is ignorant.

I'm not so personally invested in my national identity as you - certainly not enough to be offended by the fact that the UK isn't the Netherlands! What I am concerned about however is how we, the people of Britain, might improve the material conditions of society along with how, by that example, we can contribute to improving the material conditions of everyone and everything on the planet.

The environmental crisis upon us is completely border-agnostic - it transcends national boundaries, political systems, and outdated ideas about the virtues bestowed by citizenship of this-or-that country or region. Maintaining those kinds of mental barriers is unhelpful and part of the reason the World remains divided on the climate threat. Your inclination to pit one country against another is actually part of the problem.

Again, the point here is that evidence seems to suggest that reducing working hours reduces carbon footprints, makes people more productive, and enhances individual happiness. Now surely that's something you can discuss and comment on without simply criticising and dismissing it on nothing more than the nationality of who's saying it?

[Rum]

Another great unbiased source. Get a grip man.

Scraping the barrel but am I surprised? No.

Your reality is of your own making I guess and I suspect is in part a security blanket. When the facts don’t fit then the facts must be wrong. Right?

[Scot Dutchy]

Finding facts to fit your ideas is ok then?