D Day

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D Day

Post by Rum » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:30 pm

Big events here to memorialise D Day - the invasion of France and Europe by allied forces in 1944. Some of them are quite impressive and even the Orange one looks suitably respectful for once.

My father was a year too young to be in the fighting, but of course it was part of his life. When he was alive and the whole family had taken a house in Brittany for a couple of weeks we left ‘the girls’ and he and I spent the day driving along the Normandy coast, stopping at a couple od museums and memorials.

It was an incredibly moving day and we were both in tears several times. A reminder of the horror of war too. There’s nothing much noble about it except perhaps the sacrifice of those mostly terrified, no doubt, young men.

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Re: D Day

Post by Cunt » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:36 pm

I just listened to a podcast by a political commentator - Ben Shapiro. He did a GREAT job, only speaking to sell crap (his ads) and to ask the odd question of the REAL show - WW2 vets.

Moving doesn't quite describe it. Ms. C and I were switching between tears and horror at stories of learning on-the-job and decades-old memories. Highly recommend it.
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Re: D Day

Post by JimC » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:30 pm

I have an excellent book, "The Battle for Normandy" which stretches from D-day to the battle of the Falaise gap. Very illuminating.. Also, a whole variety of books which are personal accounts. Particularly good are two by Ken Tout, "Tank!" and "Tanks Advance!", describing the author's experiences as a tank gunner (and later corporal in command of a tank) as a yeomanry regiment fights its way across Normandy. Several books about the experiences of WW2 fighter pilots also describe the fighting in Normandy from the air, as well as some naval books about landing craft in WW2.
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Re: D Day

Post by Rum » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:32 am

I am personally fascinated by war, as well as horrified by the reality that it entails. Many men, who are otherwise near pacifists, or certainly ‘anti-martial’ seem to be. I love a good war film for example. I have quite a few books on various aspects of ww2 in particular as well.

I’m not very comfortable with that about myself but it does seem ingrained somehow.

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Re: D Day

Post by Alan B » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:41 am

I was 9 (all but a couple of weeks) when that lot started. I remember planes marshalling over the East End of London to join 1000 bomber raids. I remember a Spitfire trying to 'tip the wing' of a V! to direct it out to sea. I remember us kids having shrapnel hunting competitions. I remember a V! wiping out a whole block of houses (both sides of a street) - and the tail-pipe still sticking out of the ground. I remember a V2 landing in the local park and making a hole the size of a double-decker bus. I remember ack-ack from the Bofors keeping us awake at night.

All this was 'normal' to us kids - the severity and horror of it all didn't sink-in until much later...
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Re: D Day

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:46 am

I'm conflicted about the celebrations. I acknowledge the sacrifice of those on both sides who were conscripted into armed forces to kill and die for their nations. And I accept that, from the perspective of the allied forces, WWII was basically a morally unambiguous fight for survival against a horrific, expansionist, tyrannical fascist regime. But I also feel that we are collectively somewhat inclined to romanticise, and to some extent fetishise, the war and armed conflict in general, and that among all the talk of heroism and valour, and in the recounting of exploits of daring-do like D-Day, there seems little room to talk about the personal cost to those who returned or the influence of war upon a society: about the shock and the horror, the trauma, the living with visceral fear day after day, the guilt of killing and the guilt of surviving where friends and comrades didn't, the unleasing of extreme violence on civilian populations, and the essential disregard for and disposablity of human beings in the pursuance of military ambition. In these celebrations, the fact that the war was morally just and the allies won seems to wash most of that other stuff. For me too much of this 75-year celebration is talked about in the same way we talk about great sporting events, and I find that kind of embarrassing and a little shameful.
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Re: D Day

Post by Rum » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:50 am

(Edit: response to AlanB)

Gosh,you are even older than me! I thought you were a mere stripling for some reason.

I remember London in about 1954/5 when I was 5 years old. It was a bomb site, but it still had a majesty and a charisma all its own. I can still remember the impression it made on me.

Nobody told me the ruins were the result of bombing at the time. I’m not sure what I made of it. ‘The War’ would have been talked about all the time, so osmosis I guess.

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Re: D Day

Post by Rum » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:55 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:46 am
I'm conflicted about the celebrations. I acknowledge the sacrifice of those on both sides who were conscripted into armed forces to kill and die for their nations. And I accept that, from the perspective of the allied forces, WWII was basically a morally unambiguous fight for survival against a horrific, expansionist, tyrannical fascist regime. But I also feel that we are collectively somewhat inclined to romanticise, and to some extent fetishise, the war and armed conflict in general, and that among all the talk of heroism and valour, and in the recounting of exploits of daring-do like D-Day, there seems little room to talk about the personal cost to those who returned or the influence of war upon a society: about the shock and the horror, the trauma, the living with visceral fear day after day, the guilt of killing and the guilt of surviving where friends and comrades didn't, the unleasing of extreme violence on civilian populations, and the essential disregard for and disposablity of human beings in the pursuance of military ambition. In these celebrations, the fact that the war was morally just and the allies won seems to wash most of that other stuff. For me too much of this 75-year celebration is talked about in the same way we talk about great sporting events, and I find that kind of embarrassing and a little shameful.
Good points, but I think there is more understanding of the truly horrific nature of war these days. ‘Glory’ is not part of the language any more. Trauma, ptsd, the inhuman and dreadful acts individuals are capable of - they are discussed and much more understood. ‘Marching off to war’ and all that claptrap are a thing of the past - here anyway.

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Re: D Day

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:14 am

Perhaps, but I haven't encountered any of that during the D-Day coverage. Glory, valour, honour, noble sacrifice, still seem to be the current common currency of war - if only as something implicitly taken as read.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: D Day

Post by Rum » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:44 pm

I’ve scanned the whole of the BBC news web site on this topic and have not found those words (with the exception of ‘sacrifice”), used.

Perhaps rather typically Trump is quoted at one point using the word ‘glory’.

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Re: D Day

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:29 pm

Those words might not be used, but I still think that they're the current common currency of war, and particularly how we think about past conflicts. This is understandable I think - people don't like to think that their nation's role (or perhaps their own) in the extreme and violenct subjugation of another country might be a bad thing, particularly when they've constantly been told that a war is necessary, and therefore ultimately a good thing.

Son't get me wrong - I'm not against the D-Day celebrations. In fact I thin they're probably needed more now than ever. I just think that it we're going to official 'remember' a war then we should remember the bad bits as well as the good bits. We can't take a lesson from history if we only 'remember' a tidy, sanitised portion of the story.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: D Day

Post by Rum » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:13 pm

I don’t see that the ‘message’ conveyed by our culture/media is that war is ‘ultimately a good thing’ at all. I think the most one could say is that there is a sense that it is - or can be - a necessary evil. Think of the backlash that have developed over what become perceived as unjust wars - Vietnam and to some extent Blaire’s Iraq adventure, for example.

There may be a few bloodthirsty nationalists still around who relish the thought of taking on Johnny Foreigner, but the days of the mass of people automatically going hung ho behind it’s belligerent government are in the past I think. At least for some nations.

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Re: D Day

Post by Cunt » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:32 pm

Rum wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:55 am
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:46 am
I'm conflicted about the celebrations. I acknowledge the sacrifice of those on both sides who were conscripted into armed forces to kill and die for their nations. And I accept that, from the perspective of the allied forces, WWII was basically a morally unambiguous fight for survival against a horrific, expansionist, tyrannical fascist regime. But I also feel that we are collectively somewhat inclined to romanticise, and to some extent fetishise, the war and armed conflict in general, and that among all the talk of heroism and valour, and in the recounting of exploits of daring-do like D-Day, there seems little room to talk about the personal cost to those who returned or the influence of war upon a society: about the shock and the horror, the trauma, the living with visceral fear day after day, the guilt of killing and the guilt of surviving where friends and comrades didn't, the unleasing of extreme violence on civilian populations, and the essential disregard for and disposablity of human beings in the pursuance of military ambition. In these celebrations, the fact that the war was morally just and the allies won seems to wash most of that other stuff. For me too much of this 75-year celebration is talked about in the same way we talk about great sporting events, and I find that kind of embarrassing and a little shameful.
Good points, but I think there is more understanding of the truly horrific nature of war these days. ‘Glory’ is not part of the language any more. Trauma, ptsd, the inhuman and dreadful acts individuals are capable of - they are discussed and much more understood. ‘Marching off to war’ and all that claptrap are a thing of the past - here anyway.
It seems that people in the west are near unable to class anyone as 'enemy', nationally. I am sure there used to be nations which were 'enemies' of the west, but now it seems that isn't so. Maybe it seems that way because the most dramatic war efforts are all taking place elsewhere.
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Re: D Day

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:41 pm

Rum wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:13 pm
I don’t see that the ‘message’ conveyed by our culture/media is that war is ‘ultimately a good thing’ at all. I think the most one could say is that there is a sense that it is - or can be - a necessary evil. Think of the backlash that have developed over what become perceived as unjust wars - Vietnam and to some extent Blaire’s Iraq adventure, for example.

There may be a few bloodthirsty nationalists still around who relish the thought of taking on Johnny Foreigner, but the days of the mass of people automatically going hung ho behind it’s belligerent government are in the past I think. At least for some nations.
I take your point there, particularly with reference to unjust or unpopular wars.

I'm reminded of my father-in-law who was revised by the symptoms of PTSD every year around remembrance day. He was conscripted into the merchant Navy and eventually ended up as a marine fighting across North Africa and up into Italy. Late one night he talked at length about his experience, often pausing to wipe the tears from his cheeks. It was just the two of us and I had the feeling that he was talking about some of those things for the first time. I'll not recount any of that, but the things he saw and the things he did haunted him literally to the grave. If there's a definition of heroism to be found here then perhaps it's in him, in making a life for him and his family, in working all his life for the good of the community he became a social worker and then a CoE vicar, and for living with the terrible things he experienced and yet had no choice about.
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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: D Day

Post by Cunt » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:45 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:41 pm
Rum wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:13 pm
I don’t see that the ‘message’ conveyed by our culture/media is that war is ‘ultimately a good thing’ at all. I think the most one could say is that there is a sense that it is - or can be - a necessary evil. Think of the backlash that have developed over what become perceived as unjust wars - Vietnam and to some extent Blaire’s Iraq adventure, for example.

There may be a few bloodthirsty nationalists still around who relish the thought of taking on Johnny Foreigner, but the days of the mass of people automatically going hung ho behind it’s belligerent government are in the past I think. At least for some nations.
I take your point there, particularly with reference to unjust or unpopular wars.

I'm reminded of my father-in-law who was revised by the symptoms of PTSD every year around remembrance day. He was conscripted into the merchant Navy and eventually ended up as a marine fighting across North Africa and up into Italy. Late one night he talked at length about his experience, often pausing to wipe the tears from his cheeks. It was just the two of us and I had the feeling that he was talking about some of those things for the first time. I'll not recount any of that, but the things he saw and the things he did haunted him literally to the grave. If there's a definition of heroism to be found here then perhaps it's in him, in making a life for him and his family, in working all his life for the good of the community he became a social worker and then a CoE vicar, and for living with the terrible things he experienced and yet had no choice about.
I often wonder if it is that level of horror which convinces people to work hard in the other direction.

And what it will look like when all the young people are sheltered from horror...

We really do have people who can't imagine having a real enemy...
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