Prayers before Legislative Bodies

[NineBerry]

No prayers in German parliament. I suppose this is because of the historic conflict between Catholics and Protestants

Grüss Gott!

Have you eaten a Bavarian for breakfast?

[Svartalf]

Bavarian? that looked like normal German to me.

[rainbow]

No prayers in German parliament. I suppose this is because of the historic conflict between Catholics and Protestants

Grüss Gott!

Have you eaten a Bavarian for breakfast?

Ja, einer aus München.

[NineBerry]

Bavarian? that looked like normal German to me.

Only Bavarians say "Grüß Gott". And they say it wherever they go. Religious extremists that just don't want to integrate into normal society. I have a coworker who always says Grüß Gott when we meet in the elevator. I always reply with "Hallo" or "Guten Morgen". But he doesn't get the message and continues with his backwards religious traditions.

[Hermit]

Bavarian? that looked like normal German to me.

It's not even weird German. It, and Grüezi, is Bavarian. Bavarians are not German. They are the missing link between Austrians and humans. How many more times must I tell you this?



This is the peak of "Bavarian culture"

[Hermit]

No prayers in German parliament. I suppose this is because of the historic conflict between Catholics and Protestants

Grüss Gott!

Have you eaten a Bavarian for breakfast?

Ja, einer aus München.

Munching a Münchener?

Wait. I'll bring the bucket.

[Svartalf]

Bavarian? that looked like normal German to me.

It's not even weird German. It, and Grüezi, is Bavarian. Bavarians are not German. They are the missing link between Austrians and humans. How many more times must I tell you this?



This is the peak of "Bavarian culture"

Wait, I thought it was Austrians who were the missing link between the Bayerisch and humans, not the reverse, are you insinuating that we might be closer to Bavarians than to Austrians?

Dank Gott that Mozart was German anyway.

And they say ötzi was Italian anyway

[laklak]

Here they ask you "do you swear or affirm that...", and theres' no "so help you God". At least not in Florida.

[JimC]

God hates Florida...

[pErvinalia]

Florida is a cardboard cut-out southern state.

[Forty Two]

There’s a paradox. Here the Church of England is part of the State and has been for centuries - for good or ill. And yet religious ideas and influence play a relatively small part in irs proceedings and certainly policy. From this side of the pond however the country founded very specifically on the basis that religion and the State should be separate struggles and often fails to keep hard line religion out of everyday politics and legislation.

I think the "struggle" is not what you think.

Many of the things that engender "church and state" battles in the US are just accepted as normal in Europe. For example, any dime of money to be spent on a religious endeavor, like a religious school for example, is normal in Europe - but, gets massive push-back here in the US.

In England, for example, as I understand it, thousands of state-funded schools are "faith schools." Mostly C of E and Roman Catholic.

Here in the US, no public school can be religious - it's unconstitutional. The issue with state funding here comes with "vouchers" which in theory takes a student's state education money and allows it to be used at any private school (secular or religious). That's a non-stop battle, as there is huge opposition to such vouchers. https://www.au.org/resources/publicatio ... l-vouchers

There is comparatively little concern in the UK over the use of state funds in faith schools, though.

We also see little outrage over Germany's "church tax" which provides something like 70% of church funding in Germany (and Synagogue funding, etc.). That is money from the state treasury used to fund religious institutions. If that were proposed in the US, it would be met with massive -- and justifiable, because use of State money to fund churches is outrageous - outrage.

The Church of Iceland receives direct state support.

Itally has an "eight per thousand" tax which taxpayers direct to be allocated to a religious institution.

In Finland, if you belong to the Lutheran Church, you must pay a church tax. You can "opt out" by denying your church. Silly.

In Austria, Church Tax is compulsory for Catholics.

In the US, the big Supreme Court cases on religion over the last few decades have been related to (a) school vouchers and (b) when the 10 Commandments or some holiday symbols can be displayed on public property.

I think what you tend to see looking in are the religious politicians bloviating. And, I'm not saying their nonsense shouldn't be taken seriously, like prime example Ted Cruz. They want to impose religious orthodoxy and "christian nation" crap. But, so far, the system holds. There is nothing wrong with politicians being religious, but the law must hold the separation, and it does a good job of it.

[Hermit]

Germany's "church tax" which provides something like 70% of church funding in Germany (and Synagogue funding, etc.). That is money from the state treasury used to fund religious institutions.

The church tax is not funded by the state treasury. If you are a Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim or a member of a number of other qualifying religious establishments you are registered as such with the tax department, and the tax department levies a tithe on top of your personal income tax liabilities. The difference between the normal personal income tax liabilities and the tithes thus levied is then passed on to the various religious institutions in proportion to the size of their respective membership.

Kind souls will mention that as an example of typical German efficiency. Not so kindly inclined ones will draw your attention to the fact that this arrangement was introduced by Adolf Hitler.

[Forty Two]

Germany's "church tax" which provides something like 70% of church funding in Germany (and Synagogue funding, etc.). That is money from the state treasury used to fund religious institutions.

The church tax is not funded by the state treasury. If you are a Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim or a member of a number of other qualifying religious establishments you are registered as such with the tax department, and the tax department levies a tithe on top of your personal income tax liabilities. The difference between the normal personal income tax liabilities and the tithes thus levied is then passed on to the various religious institutions in proportion to the size of their respective membership.

Kind souls will mention that as an example of typical German efficiency. Not so kindly inclined ones will draw your attention to the fact that this arrangement was introduced by Adolf Hitler.

Such an arrangement would be viewed with horror in the US, and there would be massive opposition. To say that to be a member of a church you MUST pay mandated tithe would not be well-taken here. And, if it was proposed, I think it's a fair prediction that this forum would, same day, have a thread on which most non-Americans would excoriate the crazy nutter religious Americans for pushing for such a program. And, rightly so. My point in bring these examples up is that there is a ton of "mixing of religion and state" all over the "civilized world" and nobody says a damn thing about it. It's just all "cultural" and "no big deal" and such. Look at the countries that have de jure official religions. If the US tried to do that, denizens of States with official religions would be here and at Ratskep and such railing against the monstrous development in the US - and rightly so.

[Scot Dutchy]

FFS how much do Hormones pay? 10% of their income? Massive opposition? piss off sunshine. You really talk crap. Churches in America strip the idiots that go to them of every cent they have got. less than 5% go to church once a month here but once again "the look over there syndrome" kicks in. Was that the response from troll central?

[NineBerry]

The church taxes are older than 1933. In fact, the nazis worked against it in later years shifting the burden to collect the taxes from the state to the churches themselves. They are a very problematic for several reasons:

1. In some cases, church taxes are levied even for people who are not members of the church, for example for unemployed persons, for spouses of church members or for some forms of pensioners.

2. The church taxes that are paid can be used to reduce the regular tax income. So, the church tax system does reduce the actual tax income of the state.

3. People in certain professions are under high pressure to be members of the church. For example, people in the medical field or in child care have a very strong pressure to be members of the church to keep their job or find a new job. So, they actually don't pay the church taxes voluntarily...


Additionally, there is actual money that goes from the state directly to the churches ("Kirchenleistungen") sometimes directly to the churches, sometimes in the form of salaries for bishops.