Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

[JimC]

The brain chip implant is coming...

1984 eat your heart out...

[Sean Hayden]

Is this a parroty thread?

I'll take an Icelandic brexit thanks.

[Scot Dutchy]

My solution, a national ID card that is also a passport - because that bit of your passport with your photo on it is already an ID card anyway, the European ID card - and everyone gets one when they turn 16 and are issued with their NI number. And if we don't trust the government to deal with our information responsibly then perhaps we should vote for more responsible politicians.

Well that is the Belgium system more or less. Everyone there is issued with one and you can travel anywhere within the Schengen Area with it. We have to apply and pay for one and as the price difference with a full passport is very little most go for the full job.
I would like to know Rum what problems you see with a ID card and registration as opposed say to the Voters Role?
Do you think data in that is not used further?
It saves us registering to vote, health care and other benefits. I received my home test for bowel cancer this week. My wife gets her call up for breast cancer control all because we are registered. The health and voting system dont have to make up separate registers as they all use the same which is always up to date. How much money does that save?
Immigration is far better controlled. You can live here illegally but you are going to hit the lamp someday because you cant do anything financially, health, education and proper employment. Almost no jobs are paying cash except in a circuit you dont wont be in. In the hot houses in the Westland (that is between here and Hoek van Holland) the tax people have discovered many illegals. The companies employing them are bankrupted. It is just not worth it.

It is just the Dutch way. A simple example is the road signs. We dont have the negative "no left turn" sign for instance. In place we have a positive "straight on or right turn". Just a different approach.
We have a registry for the positive side and not only for the negative side. It brings benefits and saves money.

[Rum]

My solution, a national ID card that is also a passport - because that bit of your passport with your photo on it is already an ID card anyway, the European ID card - and everyone gets one when they turn 16 and are issued with their NI number. And if we don't trust the government to deal with our information responsibly then perhaps we should vote for more responsible politicians.

Well that is the Belgium system more or less. Everyone there is issued with one and you can travel anywhere within the Schengen Area with it. We have to apply and pay for one and as the price difference with a full passport is very little most go for the full job.
I would like to know Rum what problems you see with a ID card and registration as opposed say to the Voters Role?
Do you think data in that is not used further?
It saves us registering to vote, health care and other benefits. I received my home test for bowel cancer this week. My wife gets her call up for breast cancer control all because we are registered. The health and voting system dont have to make up separate registers as they all use the same which is always up to date. How much money does that save?
Immigration is far better controlled. You can live here illegally but you are going to hit the lamp someday because you cant do anything financially, health, education and proper employment. Almost no jobs are paying cash except in a circuit you dont wont be in. In the hot houses in the Westland (that is between here and Hoek van Holland) the tax people have discovered many illegals. The companies employing them are bankrupted. It is just not worth it.

It is just the Dutch way. A simple example is the road signs. We dont have the negative "no left turn" sign for instance. In place we have a positive "straight on or right turn". Just a different approach.
We have a registry for the positive side and not only for the negative side. It brings benefits and saves money.

I have already explained earlier in this thread. I don't like the idea of being stopped on the street by some official and my ID being demanded. As I also said, as a young rebellious (apparently) looking guy I was stopped more or less at random by the police on a number of occasions for no other reason than they didn't appear to like the way I looked.

What a great excuse the knob heads with a bit of authority will have for stopping people they 'don't like the look of'.

[Brian Peacock]

Dominic Raab: Theresa May's deal worse than staying in EU

The former Brexit secretary Dominic Raab has conceded Theresa May’s Brexit deal would be “even worse” than staying in the EU.

The leading Brexiter, who dramatically quit the cabinet last week in protest over the withdrawal agreement negotiated by the prime minister, said he did not advocate staying in the EU but that May’s plan was an inferior option.

Asked on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme what he would do if he had to choose between May’s deal or no Brexit at all, Raab said: “Well, I don’t have to choose that. I’m sorry, I’m not going to give way to hypothetical scenarios. I’ll keep fighting for the best, most successful Brexit.”

Pressed further on whether he thought the deal would be worse than staying in the EU, he replied: “Well, I’m not going to advocate staying in the EU but if you just presented me terms, this deal or EU membership – we’d effectively be bound by the same rules without a control or voice over them – yes, I think this would be even worse than that.”

Asked about reports cabinet ministers were considering a negotiated no deal, asking the EU to give the country another year of transition and paying some money in return, Raab said: “I would certainly be up for making a best final offer and then considering no-deal deals like that but I think, in fairness, that’s not the course the prime minister has taken. I respect all of my cabinet colleagues, from those that campaigned remain to leave, and those in between.

“But the reality is the deal we’ve got on the table is … I think inevitably we will see parliament vote this deal down and then I think some of those other alternatives will need to come into play.”

Raab resigned last Thursday, a day after tense cabinet talks over May’s EU exit strategy, saying he could not “in good conscience” support the deal agreed by the cabinet. He singled out in his resignation letter the proposed arrangement to avoid a hard border with Ireland through a backstop arrangement, calling it a “very real threat to the integrity of the United Kingdom”...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ying-in-eu

Raab is a pathological contrarian on this issue - a trait common to all Tory Brexitarians. Like the brethren of Brexitarian true beleivers his focus is always on saying "No" to what he doesn't like or want while he says absolutely nothing about his vision for the future or how that can be or might be achieved - other than offering syrupy platitudes about the perpetual sunny uplands and free unicorns for all that await post-Brexit Britain of course.

Mrs May, due to the political forces broiling within the Conservative party. has had little political option but to elevate ardent 'no-deal' Brexitarians like Raab, and his predecessor David Davis, to the position of Brexit Minister. Both have failed spectacularly in overseeing negotiations with the EU and preparing the country for the transition and post-transnational period - to all intents and purposes, they're only lasting achievement has been to frustrate the entire negotiation process, a task they've attacked with verve and alacrity.

With time running out, and virtually no substantive progress made in two-and-a-half years, May has been manipulated into a final-hour last-ditich shifting of the responsibilities of the Ministry for Exiting the European Union onto the Cabinet Office. In this regard, one might say that Mrs May has 'taken back control' - oh, the irony.

However bizarre the situation seems at present, it is actually a true measure of Tory Brexitarian success, for just as the party successfully re-branded the 2007-8 failure of the World's financial services sector as 'Gordon Brown's Crash' the Brexitarian wing of the party have been unrelenting in their re-branding of the Conservative government's collective failure as 'Theresa May's Brexit'. Tory Brexitarians and Remainers alike are now hoping this will clear the way for May to act as the sacrificial lamb of the party, the scapegoat that will, when she finally leaves or is forced out of office, carry their sins into her political wilderness, and in that create some open water between the party and the consequences of their anti-European agenda.

While that might be the hope of many Tories I think the coming Brexit catastrophe, which no UK party seems to have the will to oppose or an idea how to deal with it, will tarnish their political brand for some time to come. It's no coincidence that conservative media stooges and MPs are talking about Brexit as a new 'Poll Tax moment' or a political disaster comparable to Lord Liverpool's passing of the 1815 Corn Law that led to civil unrest and ultimately the Tory party spending 20 years in the political wilderness.

Although the government's of Cameron and May have prepared the ground to maintain the party's political power despite it's falling membership (it has about a fifth of Labour's members and fewer members than the SNP) with forthcoming changes to parliamentary structure, constituency boundaries, and voter registration that will, at the very least, bolster their level of representation in the event of a Tory voter slump, the party is still going to take a massive hit when the Brexitarian wet-dream of fine weather and free unicorns for all fails to materialise.

[Scot Dutchy]

Entirely agree Brian.

What have been waiting for all this time is for a Brexiteer to come and explain what deal is better for the UK than the present membership of the EU and not to lie about it.

[Scot Dutchy]

I don't like the idea of being stopped on the street by some official

I think you will find under British terrorism law it already exists. Nobody here can just stop you and ask for ID for no reason which was the same when I was in the Edinburgh Police. You still had the power to ask in certain situations and refusal could lead to an arrest. Here the burgermeester (mayor and head of public security) can designate certain areas as stop and ask if there is reason to do so.

[Brian Peacock]

Entirely agree Brian.

What have been waiting for all this time is for a Brexiteer to come and explain what deal is better for the UK than the present membership of the EU and not to lie about it.

Brexitarians want a re-negotiation of the deal but, well, what May presented to Parliament is the negotiated deal. If the government goes back to the EU Barnier is hardly likely to agree to something less favourable to the EU or to give the government what they say they want (basically a no-strings, cherry-picked arrangement) out of the kindness of his heart. The Brexitarians know this, but the truth of the matter is their "Oppose! Oppose! Oppose!" political gospel doesn't really allow for any sort of deal. They imagine a clean-break 'no-deal' exit in which the UK exists as some sort autocratic free-trade zone on the Singapore model - a kind of global Tortuga where anything goes as long as they can get away with it.

[Scot Dutchy]

A centre for world corruption.

[Rum]

I don't like the idea of being stopped on the street by some official

I think you will find under British terrorism law it already exists. Nobody here can just stop you and ask for ID for no reason which was the same when I was in the Edinburgh Police. You still had the power to ask in certain situations and refusal could lead to an arrest. Here the burgermeester (mayor and head of public security) can designate certain areas as stop and ask if there is reason to do so.

One of the occasions I was stopped was in Edinburgh. Maybe by you for all we know!

[Scot Dutchy]

You are older than me.

[Rum]

Really? I always thought of you as a grumpy old guy andmes sprightly retiree.

I was born in 1950.

[Scot Dutchy]

Oh I am one year older. I thought you said you were 70. We would not have been in the same year at school.

[Brian Peacock]

You youngsters are so lucky - if a little hot-headed. Wait 'till you get to 72 and nobody will let you ride a horse, even if you're probably a better equestrian than they are AND you paid in advance. Bastids!

[Scot Dutchy]

Could not ride a horse if I wanted to. Cant even ride a bike in this country. Thanks to all my head problems my balance is fucked. Standing on one foot is impossible.