Huddersfield rape gang get a total of 220 years

[Brian Peacock]

IMO religion is entirely irrelevant here and should have no bearing on what society does when confronted with people who act in such a terrible and damaging way. It becomes more difficult to uncover and counter the behaviour of grooming gangs if people think they already have the answer: that they do it because of their culture, ethnicity or religion etc.

[Scot Dutchy]

Of course not Brian. Not the experience here but the UK is special I suppose.

[Jason]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_P ... xual_abuse

I'm just going to quote this again as it seems to have been ignored by the fine gentlemen defenders of Islam here. Child rape is a major ongoing problem in Pakistan, which is an Islamic country. I'm not saying it was Islam, but it was Islam.

[Rum]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_P ... xual_abuse

I'm just going to quote this again as it seems to have been ignored by the fine gentlemen defenders of Islam here. Child rape is a major ongoing problem in Pakistan, which is an Islamic country. I'm not saying it was Islam, but it was Islam.

What's that got to so with this case?

Internet child porn is most prevalent in a number of countries - particularly the Netherlands. What does that say?

And nobody is defending Islam - just opposing the lazy drift towards labeling, generalization and prejudice.

[Jason]

What it has to do with the case, Rum, is that these fine men hailed from Pakistan - from a culture which has a child rape problem. It's not irrelevant.

[Brian Peacock]

What it has to do with the case, Rum, is that these fine men hailed from Pakistan - from a culture which has a child rape problem. It's not irrelevant.

You have a point in as much as people's values and actions are informed by many things, including things like their religion and the prevailing culture, but to go further and imply that these men did this because of that religion or culture seems too much like a simple, simplistic explanation to me - it's reductive. Former GOP hopeful Roy Moore cruised shopping malls looking for teenagers to have sex with, and he is a devout Christian and a keen horseman, but to go further and say that he did that because he's of a Christian or equestrian culture isn't very helpful of informative is it(?).

[Svartalf]

What's a Pakistanese virgin?





A little girl who can outrun her father.

[Jason]

What it has to do with the case, Rum, is that these fine men hailed from Pakistan - from a culture which has a child rape problem. It's not irrelevant.

You have a point in as much as people's values and actions are informed by many things, including things like their religion and the prevailing culture, but to go further and imply that these men did this because of that religion or culture seems too much like a simple, simplistic explanation to me - it's reductive. Former GOP hopeful Roy Moore cruised shopping malls looking for teenagers to have sex with, and he is a devout Christian and a keen horseman, but to go further and say that he did that because he's of a Christian or equestrian culture isn't very helpful of informative is it(?).

Oh please. If the Christian-Equestrian subculture had an established history of its members cruising for teens, then yes, pointing out his membership to that subculture would be salient as his actions would be informed by the norms of his subculture and it would not be irrelevant to point out the criminal tendency of members of that subculture in the consideration of the criminal potential of other members of that subculture.

[Hermit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_P ... xual_abuse

I'm just going to quote this again as it seems to have been ignored by the fine gentlemen defenders of Islam here. Child rape is a major ongoing problem in Pakistan, which is an Islamic country. I'm not saying it was Islam, but it was Islam.

If it were Islam the cause, why is child rape so prevalent in South Africa and India.

Also noteworthy:

With regards to females, seven countries reported prevalence rates [of child sexual abuse] as being more than one fifth i.e., 37.8% in Australia, 32.2% in Costa Rica, 31% in Tanzania, 30.7% in Israel, 28.1% in Sweden, 25.3% in the US, and 24.2% in Switzerland

Islamic countries, are they?

And fuck off with the "defenders of Islam" shit already. Speaking for myself, I am no apologist for any religion, least of all Islam.

[Brian Peacock]

What it has to do with the case, Rum, is that these fine men hailed from Pakistan - from a culture which has a child rape problem. It's not irrelevant.

You have a point in as much as people's values and actions are informed by many things, including things like their religion and the prevailing culture, but to go further and imply that these men did this because of that religion or culture seems too much like a simple, simplistic explanation to me - it's reductive. Former GOP hopeful Roy Moore cruised shopping malls looking for teenagers to have sex with, and he is a devout Christian and a keen horseman, but to go further and say that he did that because he's of a Christian or equestrian culture isn't very helpful of informative is it(?).

Oh please. If the Christian-Equestrian subculture had an established history of its members cruising for teens, then yes, pointing out his membership to that subculture would be salient as his actions would be informed by the norms of his subculture and it would not be irrelevant to point out the criminal tendency of members of that subculture in the consideration of the criminal potential of other members of that subculture.

OK. So I think you're saying that there's an identified paedophilic sub-culture within Islam. I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth there. Do we hold Islam in the round to account for that, and what do we communicate to the non-paedophilic majority if we do? Do we hold Christianity in the round to account for the identified paedophilic sub-culture within the Catholic clergy for example, and what to we communicate to the majority of Christians if we do? I think it could be productive if you avoided assuming I'm defending either Islam or Christianity here.

[Jason]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_P ... xual_abuse

I'm just going to quote this again as it seems to have been ignored by the fine gentlemen defenders of Islam here. Child rape is a major ongoing problem in Pakistan, which is an Islamic country. I'm not saying it was Islam, but it was Islam.

If it were Islam the cause, why is child rape so prevalent in South Africa and India.

Also noteworthy:

With regards to females, seven countries reported prevalence rates [of child sexual abuse] as being more than one fifth i.e., 37.8% in Australia, 32.2% in Costa Rica, 31% in Tanzania, 30.7% in Israel, 28.1% in Sweden, 25.3% in the US, and 24.2% in Switzerland

Islamic countries, are they?

And fuck off with the "defenders of Islam" shit already. Speaking for myself, I am no apologist for any religion, least of all Islam.

Who says child abuse is an exclusively Muslim problem? This is a total non sequitur Hermit.

[Jason]

What it has to do with the case, Rum, is that these fine men hailed from Pakistan - from a culture which has a child rape problem. It's not irrelevant.

You have a point in as much as people's values and actions are informed by many things, including things like their religion and the prevailing culture, but to go further and imply that these men did this because of that religion or culture seems too much like a simple, simplistic explanation to me - it's reductive. Former GOP hopeful Roy Moore cruised shopping malls looking for teenagers to have sex with, and he is a devout Christian and a keen horseman, but to go further and say that he did that because he's of a Christian or equestrian culture isn't very helpful of informative is it(?).

Oh please. If the Christian-Equestrian subculture had an established history of its members cruising for teens, then yes, pointing out his membership to that subculture would be salient as his actions would be informed by the norms of his subculture and it would not be irrelevant to point out the criminal tendency of members of that subculture in the consideration of the criminal potential of other members of that subculture.

OK. So I think you're saying that there's an identified paedophilic sub-culture within Islam. I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth there. Do we hold Islam in the round to account for that, and what do we communicate to the non-paedophilic majority if we do? Do we hold Christianity in the round to account for the paedophilic sub-culture within the Catholic clergy for example, and what to we communicate to the majority of Christians if we do? I think it could be productive if you avoided assuming I'm defending either Islam or Christianity here.

I'm just going to respond to the Christian consideration here: Yes I do, in the round, hold Christianity (or rather the specific branches of Christianity the offenders belong to; for example Roman Catholics) responsible for the actions of its paedophilic subcultures. What I want to communicate to the majority of those Christians who are not members of the paedophilic subcultures residing within their traditions is that it is not acceptable to quietly brush such things under the rug - that in doing so they are culpable in the actions those paedos commit - and that steps must be taken to reform their religious organizations such that these things are brought to light and punished as appropriate and by the appropriate authorities.

[Brian Peacock]

And what I want to communicated to the wider non-paedophilic citizens of the UK is, regardless of your religious preferences, it's not acceptable to ignore strings of reports of abuse from so-called 'white-trash' children because they're considered to be inherently unreliable, careless, damaged or stupid individuals, or because their allegations involve 'respectable' family men or those in positions of authority. If there's cultural blame to be apportioned here it goes a lot wider than a nominal sub-group of Islam or Catholicism to fall on all of us.

[Hermit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_P ... xual_abuse

I'm just going to quote this again as it seems to have been ignored by the fine gentlemen defenders of Islam here. Child rape is a major ongoing problem in Pakistan, which is an Islamic country. I'm not saying it was Islam, but it was Islam.

If it were Islam the cause, why is child rape so prevalent in South Africa and India.

Also noteworthy:

With regards to females, seven countries reported prevalence rates [of child sexual abuse] as being more than one fifth i.e., 37.8% in Australia, 32.2% in Costa Rica, 31% in Tanzania, 30.7% in Israel, 28.1% in Sweden, 25.3% in the US, and 24.2% in Switzerland

Islamic countries, are they?

And fuck off with the "defenders of Islam" shit already. Speaking for myself, I am no apologist for any religion, least of all Islam.

Who says child abuse is an exclusively Muslim problem? This is a total non sequitur Hermit.

No, it's not. You argued that child rape in Pakistan is so prevalent because of Islam. If that were the case you'd expect a much smaller incidence in countries where Islam is not dominant, wouldn't you? Why is that not the case?

Now have a look at Turkey. An estimated 99.8% of its population is Muslim. In 2016 its President, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, proposed a Bill that would pardon men convicted of sex with underage girls if they have married them. Thousands of Muslims have taken to the streets of Istanbul and other cities in Turkey in protest against the Bill. Erdogan's party has enough seats in parliament to easily enact any Bill as law, but the popular outrage by Muslims was strong enough for this onel to be canned. Do you want to blame Islam for that result too?

[Jason]

I don't have patience for this Hermit. The fact is the dudes are of Pakistani origin and Islamic. The other salient fact is that in Pakistani culture, child rape is a huge problem. Pretending the culture of their place of origin is irrelevant to their actions is total horseshit.