Corbyn's Labour Party Antisemitism Row

[Rum]

And categorizing Zionism, which is 100% religiously motivated, as 'secular' is absurd. What's your game Brian? Why do you support the most genocidal colonial nation to arise since the United States?

What a ridiculous thing to say.

Approximately 9,600 Palestinians and 1,251 Israelis and have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000.

[Jason]

I find your outright denial of incontrovertible truth, i.e. Zionism is predicated upon the desire to found a Jewish state for the Jewish people, and only the Jewish people, very compelling SD.

[Jason]

And categorizing Zionism, which is 100% religiously motivated, as 'secular' is absurd. What's your game Brian? Why do you support the most genocidal colonial nation to arise since the United States?

What a ridiculous thing to say.

Approximately 9,600 Palestinians and 1,251 Israelis and have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000.

I'm sorry that the genocide hasn't been egregious enough for you. How does the colonialism and appropriation of Palestinian lands grab you though?

[Jason]

Beg pardon, but how can you possibly support an ethno-religious state like Israel as a freethinking, rationally minded, person?

Put aside that they've been committing genocide and stealing native land through their program of 'settlement building' since 1948, they've declared themselves the state of the 'Jewish' people exclusive to other creeds and ethnicity. They're not the free democratic state they pretend to be - they're like Iran, but with Judaism and a lot more genocide.

I support the right of Israel to exist and its foundation, in part because I have links to people who suffered in Germany in the 30s and 40s.

I don't support their policies regarding the Palestinians.

Tell me, please, what you think the foundations of the state of Israel are that makes them legitimate and worthy of your support.

No thanks.

Well then fuck off with your opinions if you won't provide the slightest support for them when asked politely.

[Rum]

Beg pardon, but how can you possibly support an ethno-religious state like Israel as a freethinking, rationally minded, person?

Put aside that they've been committing genocide and stealing native land through their program of 'settlement building' since 1948, they've declared themselves the state of the 'Jewish' people exclusive to other creeds and ethnicity. They're not the free democratic state they pretend to be - they're like Iran, but with Judaism and a lot more genocide.

I support the right of Israel to exist and its foundation, in part because I have links to people who suffered in Germany in the 30s and 40s.

I don't support their policies regarding the Palestinians.

Tell me, please, what you think the foundations of the state of Israel are that makes them legitimate and worthy of your support.

No thanks.

Well then fuck off with your opinions if you won't provide the slightest support for them when asked politely.

This issue has been hammered to death here and on other similar forums. You won't change your mind because you are a left wing fascist and I won't because I'm a liberal with a sense of history and sympathy for the millions of Jews killed over not just 70 years but getting on for a couple of thousand.

There's nothing to be gained by you ranting with self righteous indignation, convinced you are right and that right is on your side and my shrugging and saying I take a longer view.

[Jason]

And categorizing Zionism, which is 100% religiously motivated, as 'secular' is absurd. What's your game Brian? Why do you support the most genocidal colonial nation to arise since the United States?

I don't recognise your characterisation of my views about Israel.

I apologize then, I was carried away. But the fact that Israel gets a pass for the war crimes it commits gets my juices flowing.

I disagree strongly and object to a lot of what Israel gets up to as well as finding the reflexive responsibility shifting which successive administrations have indulged in quite appalling. I don't criticise Israel because it's a self-declared Jewish state, I criticise it because or when, in my view, it's action warrant criticism and censure. Similarly I don't criticise and object to al-Qaeda because they're Muslim, or the KKK because they're Christian - which is just to say that my objections to organised religion are a separate matter and stand on their own account.

I don't criticize Israel because they're a Jewish state qua Jewish, I criticize them because they've been engaged in a 70 year program of aggressive and violent colonialism. I criticize them because they've declared themselves a ethno-religious state that is implicitly monocultural. As I said already, Israel is a Jewish state (not that there's anything wrong with that, unless you oppose the mixture of religion and politics and believe that the two should forever be kept separate, but there's certainly nothing wrong with being Jewish to ease the minds of any who feel that ought to be stated) - that is Jewish exclusively. I criticize them because it is their aim to purge their Jewish state of its non-Jewish aboriginal population.

[JimC]

Both Hitler and Corbyn had/have a love of cardigans. FACT!

So, not all bad then...

[Strontium Dog]

I find your outright denial of incontrovertible truth, i.e. Zionism is predicated upon the desire to found a Jewish state for the Jewish people, and only the Jewish people, very compelling SD.

Are you mental? It's an absolute fact that Israel was re-established as a homeland for the Jewish people. What I am denying is your counter-factual claim that it's about religion.

[JimC]

From what I've read, there is considerable tension within Israel between secular and religious elements. It is too simple to say that "Israel is a Jewish State, end of story", but neither can you ignore the strong influence that the idea of a Jewish identity, and a religious bond to their land has had on their politics and history. Generally, I agree with Rum and Brian, essentially that the existence of the State of Israel is an established fact, and there is little point in fulminating that it ought not. The actions of the Israeli government in respect to the Palestinians and its own Arab citizens, its settlement program and its overly gung ho military all deserve robust criticism, which should be possible without being labelled anti-semitic.

[Strontium Dog]

The pertinent point is that Israel is open to all descendants of those who were driven from that land, irrespective of whether they still follow the religion of their forebears. Which is why Israel is the least religious state in the Middle East.

[Jason]

I find your outright denial of incontrovertible truth, i.e. Zionism is predicated upon the desire to found a Jewish state for the Jewish people, and only the Jewish people, very compelling SD.

Are you mental? It's an absolute fact that Israel was re-established as a homeland for the Jewish people. What I am denying is your counter-factual claim that it's about religion.

Are you mental? It's an absolute fact that the organizing principle of the Zionist movement is Judaism, and has been since before Theodor Herzl wrote his papers. How is that not about religion?

[Jason]

The pertinent point is that Israel is open to all descendants of those who were driven from that land, irrespective of whether they still follow the religion of their forebears. Which is why Israel is the least religious state in the Middle East.

So the fervency of the belief behind the claim to be of the Jewish faith forms the basis of your metric of whether the officially "Jewish" state of Israel is an ethno-religious state or not. Noted.

I consider it from a Jewish standpoint, yet without fear or hatred. I believe that I can see what elements there are in it of vulgar sport, of common trade jealousy, of inherited prejudice, of religious intolerance, and also of pretended self-defence. I think the Jewish question is no more a social than a religious one - Theodor Herzl The Jewish State

[Jason]

From what I've read, there is considerable tension within Israel between secular and religious elements. It is too simple to say that "Israel is a Jewish State, end of story", but neither can you ignore the strong influence that the idea of a Jewish identity, and a religious bond to their land has had on their politics and history. Generally, I agree with Rum and Brian, essentially that the existence of the State of Israel is an established fact, and there is little point in fulminating that it ought not. The actions of the Israeli government in respect to the Palestinians and its own Arab citizens, its settlement program and its overly gung ho military all deserve robust criticism, which should be possible without being labelled anti-semitic.

Yes, the state is established, and I'm not saying it should be dismantled. I'm advocating for truth in the consideration of the Palestinian problem we have now and I'm appalled at how the war crimes of the state of Israel get whitewashed away.

A two-state solution never was workable, but I had held out hope that the Palestinians would at least be given equal rights in the state of Israel, but that seems very unlikely now.

[Jason]

Beg pardon, but how can you possibly support an ethno-religious state like Israel as a freethinking, rationally minded, person?

Put aside that they've been committing genocide and stealing native land through their program of 'settlement building' since 1948, they've declared themselves the state of the 'Jewish' people exclusive to other creeds and ethnicity. They're not the free democratic state they pretend to be - they're like Iran, but with Judaism and a lot more genocide.

I support the right of Israel to exist and its foundation, in part because I have links to people who suffered in Germany in the 30s and 40s.

I don't support their policies regarding the Palestinians.

Tell me, please, what you think the foundations of the state of Israel are that makes them legitimate and worthy of your support.

No thanks.

Well then fuck off with your opinions if you won't provide the slightest support for them when asked politely.

This issue has been hammered to death here and on other similar forums. You won't change your mind because you are a left wing fascist and I won't because I'm a liberal with a sense of history and sympathy for the millions of Jews killed over not just 70 years but getting on for a couple of thousand.

There's nothing to be gained by you ranting with self righteous indignation, convinced you are right and that right is on your side and my shrugging and saying I take a longer view.

You give the state of Israel a pass on their atrocities (genocide and forced displacement among them) because of the holocaust where they were forcibly displaced and murdered en masse (genocide)?


Also, I'm a leftwing fascist? wtf?

I'm a human rights advocate who has no time for bullshit when it comes to serious things like this.

[Jason]

Just to be clear I believe the in importance of rational discourse, democratic institutions and the opposition of violence as a means of political expression. I'm certainly not, in any way, a fascist.