Problematic Stuff

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pErvinalia
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:08 am

And just to add, SJW as a term has been around a lot longer than the Alt-Right. The AR didn't invent the term. They did arguably make it more of a pejorative, though.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Animavore » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:11 am

pErvinalia wrote:They actually do need to be fought - in response to the threat they pose, which is miniscule. But they do need to be countered, as do all irrational sociopolitical ideas. But to claim some secret marxists conspiracy and that SJWs are a bigger threat to society than the alt-right, or even just garden variety conservatives, is utterly ridiculous.
People who hand out colouring books and create safe spaces definitely need to be fought harder than a group whose predecessors and idols committed mass genocide.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Animavore » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:14 am

No: the evolutionary conservation of serotonergic neurones does not establish a close link between humans and lobsters. A lobster uses single neurones to do the job of thousands, if not millions, in the human brain. Lobsters never cooperate: two in a tank will shortly become one, and lunch. After my PhD I thought them the worst-tempered animals in the sea; in fact it's unfair, because they are little more than automata. Other biological systems, like the complex of homeobox genes, that are conserved do not indicate close affinity. Despite the ubiquity of homeobox genes we don't have six legs and flies don't have vertebrae...
From the comment section of the previous article I posted.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:17 am

Good, cause lobster's tasty. :food:
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by laklak » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:37 am

Yep, like, really tasty. Beats fuck out of shrimp.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by JimC » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:02 am

pErvinalia wrote:They actually do need to be fought - in proportion to the threat they pose, which is miniscule. But they do need to be countered, as do all irrational sociopolitical ideas. But to claim some secret marxists conspiracy and that SJWs are a bigger threat to society than the alt-right, or even just garden variety conservatives, is utterly ridiculous.
:this:

Extreme cultural marxists are a pain in the bum, no doubt, but most progressives are more concerned with attacking real social problems, not indulging in academic wank-fests...
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by JimC » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:03 am

laklak wrote:Yep, like, really tasty. Beats fuck out of shrimp.
Perhaps you have not tasted Tiger Prawns from Oz...
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:27 am

Forty Two wrote:
L'Emmerdeur wrote:The article does show clear evidence that he was adopted by the alt-right as a champion of their views. It does not claim that he was motivated by the Spencer and the alt-right, no matter how assiduously you attempt to twist what it actually says.
The article (a) includes him in a list of what the SPLC calls "alt right killers," and (b) outright, flat out, literally SAYS he was the first "alt right killer" and (c) specifically includes him in the 110 killers who were INFLUENCED BY (not merely "adopted" by) the alt right.

It absolutely claims he was motivied by the alt right, because the entire list of 110 killers are on that list precisely because the SPLC says they were influenced by the alt-right to commit their murders.

I'm not twisting anything, you are. I'm taking the article at it's literal words.
The article explains extensively why that particular asshole was included in the list, and it's not for the reasons you're insisting upon.

The SPLC describes Rodger as somebody who 'fit the profile of alt-right killer.' The article opens with a description of a killer who unquestionably was a member of the alt-right, who also used Rodger's name as one of his online identities. It points out that Rodger's self-description as 'supreme gentleman' has been adopted as an alt-right meme.

The fact is that many alt-right personalities like Cernovich and Cantwell first gained some measure of attention as members of the online 'manosphere' that Rodgers also inhabited. It's clear that there is a direct connection between the MRA world and that of the alt-right. As mentioned previously, many who post on alt-right sites celebrate Rodger as one of their own. These are the reasons that the SPLC has chosen to identify Rodger as an alt-right killer. However nowhere in the article do they claim that he was influenced by Spencer and the alt-right as such.

You're making much of the sub-head of the article and ignoring the actual content. Perhaps you're not aware that it's standard practice to use to use flashy phrasing in a title and subhead to draw interest, while the article itself is much more nuanced and may even contradict the title. We had an example of that in this thread very recently, where the title of the article by Whiteside about Woody Guthrie calls him a racist, while the article itself clearly describes him leaving racism of his youth behind and later vocally opposing it. If I were to use your simplistic approach, I'd just claim that Guthrie was a racist (as you yourself did), because IT SAYS THAT RIGHT IN THE TITLE! and I'd be just as incorrect as you are.

The SPLC article documents the clear and obvious fact that the alt-right has a hand in encouraging young men to indulge their murderous impulses. Apparently you feel the need to discredit it, but you've failed miserably.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:26 am

Animavore wrote:That is the most incredible bait 'n' switch ever. Peterson agrees with Chomsky and Hitchens on Post Modernism, therefore he is rightfully nestled among them as an intellectual heavyweight! :hilarious:

Nevermind that Hitchens pretty much was a Marxist, and Chomsky certainly would never be a champion of Neo Nazis and InfoWars. Nor have I ever heard of fans of the latter have such cultish devotion to them that they "abused, harassed, and doxxed" their critics, as neither of those two were ever the type of people to rile people.

At least it all becomes clear now who 42 is ape-ing. " Peterson described Trump as a “liberal” and a “moderate”, no more of a demagogue than Reagan."

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... rnets-nest

This guy is akin to Hitchens and Chomsky?
Yet Peterson’s commitment to unfettered free speech is questionable. Once you believe in a powerful and malign conspiracy, you start to justify extreme measures. Last July, he announced plans to launch a website that would help students and parents identify and avoid “corrupt” courses with “postmodern content”. Within five years, he hoped, this would starve “postmodern neo-Marxist cult classes” into oblivion. Peterson shelved the plan after a backlash, acknowledging that it “might add excessively to current polarisation”. Who could have predicted that blacklisting fellow professors might exacerbate polarisation? Apparently not “the most influential public intellectual in the western world”.
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The fear is, of course, that lecturers who teach a Marxist interpretation of history, economic, or social theory are brain-washing their students, whereas those who teach a Capitalist interpretation are considered more, shall we say, ethically neutral. The thing is, universities are not breeding Marxists - at worst they are turning out people willing to question and challenge the current social-economic paradigm, but there's no mass movement calling for a revolution and the imposition of Communist doctrine.

Objections to cultural studies courses with an apparent left-leaning perspective are first and foremost political objections. In this regard they represent and reflect traditional notions of 'political correctness' - la politica assoluta - a perspective which maintains that one, and only one political interpretation can be and is right and correct, and thus all other perspectives are politically inferior, compromised, suspect, and often malign. It's only natural that those who hold these views should be inclined to warn us that students, and indeed society, are being misled and corrupted by false notions forwarded by the 'politically incorrect'.

Peterson's ideas on gender identity are quite interesting. He feels that current Western cultural perspectives on gender have been long in the making and reduce down to two core identities which epitomise the heroic ideals of natural manliness and natural femininity - authentic men are authentically manly and authentic women are likewise authentically feminine. However, where he falls down imo is taking this contention so far that it falls into philosophical realms which border Natural Theology: to maintain that culturally prevalent gender descriptions/role apply in, if not all, then at least the vast majority of cases; to say that one's gender is determined by, and only by, the configuration on one's reproductive organs and that the brute fact of our reproductive organs determines the group, male or female, to which we rightfully belong. But he takes things further still, having thus laid the ground work he grants himself licence to undertake personal criticism of those who eschew 'either-or' gender categorisations for acting against their true nature as males and/or females. In the end, what he is basically criticising people for is not conforming to his own theory of gender identity.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by laklak » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:01 pm

Anyone who isn't a socialist at 20 has no heart. Anyone who isn't a Libertarian at 40 has no job.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:33 am

L'Emmerdeur - the article in several places says - and I quoted it - that Rodger was influenced by the alt-right. It says it. I can't do anything more than quoting it. When the article says the list is a list of those influenced by the alt-right, and Rodger is on the list, then he is someone they are saying was influenced by the alt right. When they say he was "the first alt-right killer" they are saying he's an "alt right killer." Whatever else you're arguing does not change that.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:59 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Animavore wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:Can you give an example of SJWs adopting postmodernism?
Can anyone even give AN exa mole of an SJW is the real question. As far as I can see no such group exists.
There doesnt' have to be a "group" in order for there to be an example. SJWs are real, whether there is a formal group or not. Melissa Click, and her crowd of folks trying to shut journalists out of a public area. She's an SJW. The students who reported Laura Kipnis. Nathan Rambukkana of the Laurier University fame, and his two cohorts in that infamous recording. "You're fuckin' a white male!" AIDS Skrillex and "Are you kidding me?!??!" Carl the Cuck. "Take your hate speech outta this campus!" Trigglypuff. "I didnt' see anything, officer" Smuggleypuff. "Hugh Mungus" Zarna Joshi. "I can't be racist if I'm an ethnic minority" Bahar Mustafa. Professor Nick Matte of the University of Toronto who argues, among other things, that there is no such thing as biological sex, and that it is tantamount to violence and hate speech to say otherwise or to refuse to use newly coined pronouns. Amanda Marcotte, who writes that an 18 year old high school student politely asking a Miss USA pageant winner to the prom once is "sexual harassment." "Everything is sexist, everything is racist, everything is homophobic...." Anita Sarkeesian. Suey Park. Jessica Valenti.

As Andrew Sullivan wrote in NYMag,
I believe ideas matter. When elite universities shift their entire worldview away from liberal education as we have long known it toward the imperatives of an identity-based “social justice” movement, the broader culture is in danger of drifting away from liberal democracy as well. If elites believe that the core truth of our society is a system of interlocking and oppressive power structures based around immutable characteristics like race or sex or sexual orientation, then sooner rather than later, this will be reflected in our culture at large. What matters most of all in these colleges — your membership in a group that is embedded in a hierarchy of oppression — will soon enough be what matters in the society as a whole.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... s-now.html

Note his use of the phrase regarding "interlocking power structures" and oppression. That's the core of postmodernism, and that underpins the entire social justice movement in the United States, and also in some places elsewhere, like Canada. A Nathan Rambukkana has adopted postmodernism, because his ideology is based on it.

And, to say that there are no examples of "SJWs" is ridiculous as the world is rife with them now. And, to say that their philosophy is not foundationally postmodern is to not listen to what they're saying.
It's just a derogatory term given by racist, sexist, homophobic, bigots to generally anyone who wants to put an end to racism, sexism, homophobia, and bigotry. "Oh no! We can't call people by offensive and demeaning names in private spaces any more without getting removed or fired. Waah! Those SJWs are oppressing me."
That's not really it. It's that we can't show a clip of Steve Paikan's the Agenda which ran in prime time on the CBC and involved a polite discussion about the state of the law, and the reasons for and against a legal requirement that people must use language they don't agree with (in the example, certain pronouns), and whether the refusal to use such language is hate speech. Having that discussion, and playing it in a classroom is "problematic" and if a teacher shows the clip without "properly" taking a side in the discussion (the "correct" side...) then that teacher may be subjected to discipline, and even ultimately potentially fired if she opts not to obey...

It's also that wearing a Trump hat will subject you to violence. Or, that expressing unsavory political opinions warrants, as a moral imperative, violence. That kind of thing.

SJW is the boogieman's boogieman.
There's definitely an extreme fringe element on the left that takes progressivism to an absurd length. I like things in neat boxes, so I'm happy to call them that. The only problem would be that nutbags like Peterson and 42 would include far more regular and reasonable progressives under the label than would someone more reasonable.

I don't think you can point to me including "regular and reasonable progressives" under the label SJW. If you can, please do. If not, please retract your statement.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:06 pm

Forty Two wrote: Note his use of the phrase regarding "interlocking power structures" and oppression. That's the core of postmodernism,


You want to back that up?
And, to say that their philosophy is not foundationally postmodern is to not listen to what they're saying.


Can you explain how it is post-modern? I recall you saying that post-modernism rejects absolute truth, but you haven't shown how that applies to SJWs.
There's definitely an extreme fringe element on the left that takes progressivism to an absurd length. I like things in neat boxes, so I'm happy to call them that. The only problem would be that nutbags like Peterson and 42 would include far more regular and reasonable progressives under the label than would someone more reasonable.

I don't think you can point to me including "regular and reasonable progressives" under the label SJW. If you can, please do. If not, please retract your statement.
I'm tempted not to point it out, just so I can tell you to bite me. But you've previously tried to argue that women don't face systemic disadvantage in our societies. And above you've ridiculed the idea that minorities can't be racist. These ideas, and the desire to address them, are pretty bog standard progressive ideas. Do you consider them to fall under the umbrella of SJW activism?
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Animavore » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:11 pm

laklak wrote:Anyone who isn't a socialist at 20 has no heart. Anyone who isn't a Libertarian at 40 has no job.
Well I'm 39, I have a job, and I see pros and cons to both. :coffee:
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Tero » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:43 pm

But but....snowplows! Our snowplow driver is a libertarian and is employed by evil government. He gets to fix potholes that he himself plowed up in winter.

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