The US Healthcare Mass Debate

[Forty Two]

This is because everything goes up, without regulation.

Corporations that have a semimonopoly can charge whatever for health, internet, cell phone etc services. At least we have an option not to buy cell phones.

One, Obamacare's promise was that premiums would go down, and they did not.
Two, Obamacare's other promise was that insurance would be more affordable, and it isn't.
Three, insurance premiums never went up as fast as they have in the last 3-4 years. That's a fact.

Cell phones is a bad example for you. The competitive market in cell phones has kept prices remarkably low. The amount of technology that you can buy for a low price is remarkable, and a testament to the free market. They're giving phones away to get your business.

You're right, where there are monopolies, the market is distorted and competition does not work to keep prices down. however, we don't have monopolies in internet or cell phones, and we have very inexpensive internet and cell phone technology. Unless you're looking for these things to be "free" to the consumer, you can't do any better than the competitive market. The government would only make these things more expensive, and less reliable.

[Tero]

Two, Obamacare's other promise was that insurance would be more affordable, and it isn't.

Well, you were not poor enough for the subsidy. For the people making some 30-60 000 in income (it went up just now for 2018), you get a subsidy. Those millions of people were able to do it for several years now.

[Forty Two]

Two, Obamacare's other promise was that insurance would be more affordable, and it isn't.

Well, you were not poor enough for the subsidy. For the people making some 30-60 000 in income (it went up just now for 2018), you get a subsidy. Those millions of people were able to do it for several years now.

Even with the subsidy, their insurance generally speaking became less affordable. The main ones where that is not the case are those that make so little they get free or almost free insurance. And, once again, those people could have been helped just by raising the Medicaid threshold so that people making up to, say, $27,000 or $30,000 per year would be eligible for Medicaid, maybe with a sliding scale requiring some payment as income went up. There was no need for Obamacare.

Half the uninsured in 2010 were making $50,000 per year and over - that's the median income. Half. One quarter of the uninsured were illegal aliens. That left about 10 or 11 million people -- the people that would have been helped by raising the income threshold for Medicaid. The Obamacare purpose was not to help the needy, though. It was to force people who could afford insurance to buy insurance, and of course, when you do that, the price skyrockets just based on demand. Now they can afford it even less. But, they managed to spend a trillion dollars to insurance 11 million people who arguably needed assistance but weren't getting it before.

[Brian Peacock]

But the rate of premium increases went down after the ACA was introduced.

[Forty Two]

False. Absolutely not. All you have to do is call BlueCross/Blue Shield, or Aetna, or any other insurance company and price the insurance. The rate of premium increases was through the roof. Just between 2017 and 2018 it's another 20% minimum.

From March, 2017 - https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothec ... 396e7111d2

"ACA advocates have been able to respond that those are cherry-picked cases, or that premiums were increasing before the ACA and would have increased anyway.

Those responses are no longer plausible. It turns out that across the board, for all ages and family sizes, for HMO, PPO, and POS plans, premium increases averaged about 60 percent from 2013, the last year before ACA reforms took effect, to 2017. In same length of time preceding that, all groups experienced premium increases of less than 10 percent, and most age groups actually experienced premium decreases, on average."

[Tero]

Medicaid!!?!! That’s socialism! Government run healthcare means...death panels!

[laklak]

But the rate of premium increases went down after the ACA was introduced.

Nah, I don't believe it. It's the official line, but at best it's an unconscionable manipulation of statistics, at worst it's lying, bullshit propaganda. My experience, and the experience of every single person I've spoken to about it, is our premiums skyrocketed. Every single one, regardless of income, political persuasion, or any other factor. Skyrocketed like a fucking Saturn 5 launch. In two years my premiums went from $450 a month to $1100 a month. My deductible went from $2500 to $10,000 per annum. My total coverage (maximum insurance payment) went from 5 million to 2 million. And this for someone with absolutely NO preexisting or chronic conditions.

Whether it is worth that to cover the uninsured is a different argument, but the statement that either the rates themselves or the rate of increase fell is untrue. Now, since Magic George managed to get our income down to subsidy level I LOVES my ACA. Other people are now paying for the vast majority of my health insurance. This year I'm paying $225 a month, while my sister is now paying $1500. So the generous taxpayers of the U.S.A. are paying me about $15,000 a year. Thanks, Obama!

Unfortunately for me, that is coming to an end. We won't be seeing subsidies like this next year, but in the two years I've been subsidized I've basically been given $30,000. And I'd be one stupid motherfucker not to take it. Fortunately for me, I sign up for Medicare next year, and we'll be moving overseas where my health care costs will be FAR lower than they are here.

[Forty Two]

Medicaid!!?!! That’s socialism! Government run healthcare means...death panels!

It's not socialism if the government doesn't control or own the means of production. Medicaid is a government program for the needy that private health care providers may, but are not required to, participate in. They have to agree to accept Medicaid rates for services, but they don't have accept Medicaid patients at all if they don't want to enroll in the program.

And, that's a completely different issue anyway -- the fact remains that the ACA made insurance more expensive, by leaps and bounds, and it did not serve its stated purposes.

[Tero]

But the rate of premium increases went down after the ACA was introduced.

Nah, I don't believe it. It's the official line, but at best it's an unconscionable manipulation of statistics, at worst it's lying, bullshit propaganda. My experience, and the experience of every single person I've spoken to about it, is our premiums skyrocketed. Every single one, regardless of income, political persuasion, or any other factor. Skyrocketed like a fucking Saturn 5 launch. In two years my premiums went from $450 a month to $1100 a month. My deductible went from $2500 to $10,000 per annum. My total coverage (maximum insurance payment) went from 5 million to 2 million. And this for someone with absolutely NO preexisting or chronic conditions.

Whether it is worth that to cover the uninsured is a different argument, but the statement that either the rates themselves or the rate of increase fell is untrue. Now, since Magic George managed to get our income down to subsidy level I LOVES my ACA. Other people are now paying for the vast majority of my health insurance. This year I'm paying $225 a month, while my sister is now paying $1500. So the generous taxpayers of the U.S.A. are paying me about $15,000 a year. Thanks, Obama!

Unfortunately for me, that is coming to an end. We won't be seeing subsidies like this next year, but in the two years I've been subsidized I've basically been given $30,000. And I'd be one stupid motherfucker not to take it. Fortunately for me, I sign up for Medicare next year, and we'll be moving overseas where my health care costs will be FAR lower than they are here.

Good you worked it out. It’s a juggling of income and subsidy.

I get Medicare in 2019 but my wife has to work out something for 2 years. She is healthy, but if she crashes on bike, that is not covered by car insurance.

[pErvinalia]

You are pleased about that? No conscious feelings? Are you on the dole and have no income?

Correct. No one dies from lack of healthcare here if they are poor.

[pErvinalia]

Two, Obamacare's other promise was that insurance would be more affordable, and it isn't.

Well, you were not poor enough for the subsidy. For the people making some 30-60 000 in income (it went up just now for 2018), you get a subsidy. Those millions of people were able to do it for several years now.

Even with the subsidy, their insurance generally speaking became less affordable.

We've posted analysis before that shows this is bullshit. It got considerably cheaper for the poorer in society.

The Obamacare purpose was not to help the needy, though. It was to force people who could afford insurance to buy insurance, and of course, when you do that, the price skyrockets just based on demand.

What? That's not how insurance works. It gets cheaper the larger and broader the pool.

[Brian Peacock]

False. Absolutely not. All you have to do is call BlueCross/Blue Shield, or Aetna, or any other insurance company and price the insurance. The rate of premium increases was through the roof. Just between 2017 and 2018 it's another 20% minimum.

From March, 2017 - https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothec ... 396e7111d2

"ACA advocates have been able to respond that those are cherry-picked cases, or that premiums were increasing before the ACA and would have increased anyway.

Those responses are no longer plausible. It turns out that across the board, for all ages and family sizes, for HMO, PPO, and POS plans, premium increases averaged about 60 percent from 2013, the last year before ACA reforms took effect, to 2017. In same length of time preceding that, all groups experienced premium increases of less than 10 percent, and most age groups actually experienced premium decreases, on average."

The story is that premium increases are a direct result of the ACA over any and all other factors, and the fact that the ACA has been in place while premiums have risen makes it easy for those who objected to the ACA on principle to pin the blame for price rises on that factor alone. This has been one of the GOP's primary political drivers ever since the ACA was proposed: https://www.factcheck.org/2015/02/slowe ... der-obama/ I'm yet to see anything but a moral argument being brought to justify how dismantling the ACA is going to increase the rate, depth or scope of health coverage while making it more affordable to the consumer. How would removing the ACA make US healthcare better?

[Tero]

They just want affordable ”insurance” that has no freebies such as vaccines and a physical, plus a lifetime cap, so they don’t have to pay and care for transplants.

Plus exclude all sick people.

[laklak]

We don't need coverage for sexual reassignment surgery. We don't need maternity benefits. We don't need free birth control. Why should I pay for that coverage, either for us or for anyone else? Before you say "that's how insurance works", it doesn't. Take car insurance. If you want basic liability and 3rd party it's cheap as chips. You want collision, comprehensive, and high liability limits it costs a shitload more. Throw in a shitty driving record and a financed car and you'll be breaking out the checkbook big time. Take home insurance. If your house costs $100,000 and isn't in a flood plain, you'll pay one fuckton less than the guy on the Gulf in a $5,000,000 McMansion. Take life insurance. If you're 25, don't smoke, and in good health you'll pick up a half-million policy for peanuts. If you're my age and an ex-smoker, it will cost you through the nose. Take business liability insurance. If you own a house painting company you don't pay much for liability, but if you own a restaurant or food producer it'll cost you.

Why should health insurance be any different? You pick the coverage you're comfortable with, and based on your age and general health the actuaries come up with a premium. If it's too expensive then you either make lifestyle changes or drop certain coverages. Seems pretty simple to me, but then again I worked in the industry for decades so I'm probably "biased", as I understand the way it works.

[pErvinalia]

That's how it works here. Seems like healthcare in the US is an alternative universe.