The Abolition of Prostitution

[Rum]

(In serious mode for a change..)

I listen to Woman's Hour on BBC Radio 4 now and again and enjoy it. This morning one of their interviews was with Julie Bindel - a feminist and writer, who takes the view that prostitution is tantamount to slavery. Amongst other things she calls for the legalisation of all current offences relating to the prostitute (herself) and making all actions on the purchasing side illegal - i.e. the punters and pimps would be breaking the law.

As to the legalisation of prostitution in countries where it has been tried she says the following: The "Legalisation of prostitution in Germany, Holland and Australia has not led to a decrease in violence, HIV rates or in fewer women being murdered. I met a former ‘sex workers rights’ activist in Melbourne, Sabrinna Valisce, who, confronted with the reality of decriminalisation, had a dramatic change of heart. ‘I thought it would improve things if everything was legal and above board, but it just gave more power to the johns and the brothel-owners.’ (https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/08/mos ... ay-slaves/)

She has also just published a book: 'The Pimping of Prostitution' https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/113755889X

She takes the view that all prostitution is abuse and exploitation.

Her 'vision' is utopian from my perspective as it does not stand the remotest change of happening in the foreseeable future. But is she right to take the view she does? Does prostitution have a place - however 'undesirable'?

[Drewish]

All work is wage slavery. Get a marketable skill or prepare to be porked for a living. Better than the man's alternative which is dying in the streets. Suck ti up honey, life aint easy and you aint entitled to shit.

[laklak]

If a woman wants to rent out her minge who are we to tell her not to?

[Rum]

More to the point if a woman is 'forced' to 'rent out her minge' either by a pimp, which is often the case it seems, or because of economic necessity , then collectively perhaps we should offer her a way out?

[laklak]

Of course, and whoever is forcing her should be charged and jailed.

[Drewish]

Conflating forced sex with voluntary. Conflating the economic necessity of making a living with slavery. I mean these are the simplest arguments to knock down.

[Brian Peacock]

Do we not own our own bodies, and therefore are personally responsible for what we put in them - whether that be bacon, cheese, or, erm, pork?

I this light, what are the questions and answers around where, how, what, and when are people not responsible for their body or their actions with and/or toward it?

I agree with Drewish about the quick conflation of oranges and apples and the unhelpfulness of certain kinds of rhetoric. If one raises the matter of 'abuse' with little by way of qualification, for example, and how prostitutes are 'abused' by pimps and johns, someone will on dbout soon come along and say that it's the johns who are being abused (if only economically) by the prostitute - and a pointless argument ensures about which party is more abusive or abused.

[Rum]

Bindel makes an assumption that ALL prostitution is exploitation and abuse. I can't say I follow her argument as it is complex and I have not read her book. It is certainly the case that until very recently it seems that most women prostitutes were out there making money for the men who controlled them and being fucked more or less against they will or at least under protest. 'Independent' prostitution via the likes of adultwork (www.adultwork.com) and the like seems to be relatively new.

I'm in two minds. Trying to imagine myself in an economically bereft state and having to have reluctant sex with someone for money is a hard thing to imagine. But as far as I can I am sure I would hate it.

[Drewish]

It's the most dangerous job that you're likely to see women in over men. Contrast with the military, various forms of construction / welding / mining, and other simmialr careers. When illegal cops were not reliable protection so johns / brothel owners played the roel of protection racket instead of the sanctioned one we all pay for with taxes. Legalize it and suddenly a larger segment of the population is willign to do it, reducing the value of each worker. In the end (outside of the high class escorts for which there ar emuch higher standards) this is entry level work, and thus subject to the same shitty conditions as other such jobs. Market forces are a bitch. When you're jsut a piece of meat and not exceptional (as is the case in most manual labor) in a world as over populated as this, you have no bargaining power. It's the harsh truth that everyone needs to face regardless of their gender. Legalization was never goign to make low-end sex work a great job. It was just meant to cut away the black market control that gave cover and income to organizations that did far worse.



EDIT -

How the hell do I embed youtube videos here again?

[cronus]

I never made much money at it on my stint. All I can say is it is better than dying on the streets. Give it a try?

[JimC]

There are some very uneasy bed fellows in this debate - feminists and religious ideologues...

[cronus]

There are some very uneasy bed fellows in this debate - feminists and religious ideologues...

...and wild women/nymphos...without prostitution they'd start offering services for free and soon topple civilization by their behaviour intersecting with disease and modern scandal publishing media....you only have to look how far along the road to underground moral decay the current 'PC-square' generation has brought things?

[Rum]

There are some very uneasy bed fellows in this debate - feminists and religious ideologues...

There are however quite a few movements which create strange bedfellows - nuclear disarmament, environmental groups etc. It doesn't invalidate an argument.

For me the argument comes down to whether prostitution is per se 'abuse'. I'm not sure it has to be in every case - even if it very often is. So I'm inclined towards the liberalisation approach, perhaps with some further safeguards.

[Scot Dutchy]

It was legalised here in 2000. Many town and city councils have cut the number of windows being used drastically. Amsterdam by 50%! Prostitutes have to have an annual health check and pay taxes. Practically all prostitution here is window prostitution. There are one or two brothels. Prostitution is no so popular thanks to internet. Tinder is cheaper.

[Rum]

It was legalised here in 2000. Many town and city councils have cut the number of windows being used drastically. Amsterdam by 50%! Prostitutes have to have an annual health check and pay taxes. Practically all prostitution here is window prostitution. There are one or two brothels. Prostitution is no so popular thanks to internet. Tinder is cheaper.

Reading the OP is always handy. The article and book this is based on is the notion that legislation does not necessarily make it safer, less exploitative or less abusive than old style prostitution. On reflection I think she is wrong, but that she has a point.