Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

[NineBerry]

An equivalent question is that of eternal torture. Descriptions of Hell are cruesome. But how bad can being thrown into cooking water and having your skin peeled off while alive really be when it has been constantly done to you for a million years?

[Brian Peacock]

Yes, it would! Believe me!

Oh no it wouldn't!

[Brian Peacock]

An equivalent question is that of eternal torture. Descriptions of Hell are cruesome. But how bad can being thrown into cooking water and having your skin peeled off while alive really be when it has been constantly done to you for a million years?

Yeah, it would quickly become just annoying, and then a boring, mundane kind of groundhog day.

Similarly, if everything was heavenly perfection, if every want and need was met before you were ever troubled by it, if there were no quandaries presented and no compromises to be made, no unanswered questions and no knowledge to acquire, and if your only job was to be happy and praise the Lord, then that would be a living hell for me too.

[Hermit]

I do actually believe that a life without bad stuff would also miss out all the good stuff. What would be the joy of enjoying a cold beer after work when you don't have to work? We enjoy eating only because there is the danger of hunger. And so on.

Yes. You need neither a god nor evil for any of that, though.

[Forty Two]

An equivalent question is that of eternal torture. Descriptions of Hell are cruesome. But how bad can being thrown into cooking water and having your skin peeled off while alive really be when it has been constantly done to you for a million years?

Yeah, it would quickly become just annoying, and then a boring, mundane kind of groundhog day.

Similarly, if everything was heavenly perfection, if every want and need was met before you were ever troubled by it, if there were no quandaries presented and no compromises to be made, no unanswered questions and no knowledge to acquire, and if your only job was to be happy and praise the Lord, then that would be a living hell for me too.

It is interesting how Christians use the necessity of evil for there to be good, but that necessity applies neither to God nor Heaven. Our eternity in heaven, apparently, has no need of evil to be a Paradise.

[Svartalf]

in the after life, good and evil are totally segregated.
then again, god is evil.

[Forty Two]

An equivalent question is that of eternal torture. Descriptions of Hell are cruesome. But how bad can being thrown into cooking water and having your skin peeled off while alive really be when it has been constantly done to you for a million years?

I suppose it can still be pretty bad.

The real question is, what kind of deity would impose infinite punishment for finite sins, or as some religions teach, for simply not "believing" in the right thing...or, even as some religions teach, for the arbitrary reason of not being one of a precious few chosen righteous who will receive salvation?

I was listening to a minister recently discuss the issue of salvation. The language seemed well-received by the congregants, but to me they seemed rather off-putting. Come to the altar, the minister said, the Father's arms are open wide. And, our forgiveness of our sins and salvation were bought with the blood of Jesus Christ. This was viewed as joyous good news to the faithful. However, it seemed to me that an altar is a symbol of a place of sacrifice. Blood sacrifices occur on altars. The sacrifice here was of the Lamb of God, not a real lamb as they used to sacrifice for the atonement of sins, but the Son of God who is being sacrificed to atone for the sins of all mankind.

How does Jesus' sacrifice, like the blood sacrifice of a lamb, atone for my sins? That's scapegoating. That's what they did in ancient times, when the God needed blood offerings, lambs, portions of crops, etc., and as the Old Testament puts it, the aroma of the blood and burning of the sacrificial offerings floated up to the deity, who was pleased with the sacrifice, or displeased.

So, instead, we are to be joyful because some other being, the supposed son of god who is also god, allowed himself to be tortured and murdered to "atone" for the sins of all of us, just like he was a lamb whose throat was to be slit and blood spilled on the blood-soaked and reeking altar of sacrifice.

This is good? There is forgiveness there? But the murder is not enough, apparently, for most versions of Christianity, only those who "accept" the gift will get the gift and be saved. Not sure why that's necessary? Doesn't the atonement apply to the sin of not believing in the deity and salvation of Jesus? No? Why not?

And, now that salvation has been purchased with blood, what need is there of further "evil"in the world? In a short time, the saved are going to heaven and the unsaved hell anyway, so why not just have done with it. Eternity is eternity after all. Eternity doesn't get longer just because we die here on earth sooner....

[mistermack]

Because God put it there, because the world would be boring as fuck without.

Wrong.
The world is neither boring nor interesting. That's inside our heads.
The world just is.

We evolved to find certain things attention grabbing. And conflict is one of them because we are an aggressive territorial ape.
Other minds, that evolved in other ways, wouldn't have the same priorities.

[Brian Peacock]

Because God put it there, because the world would be boring as fuck without.

Wrong.
The world is neither boring nor interesting. That's inside our heads.
The world just is.

We evolved to find certain things attention grabbing.

..or, you know, interesting.

And conflict is one of them because we are an aggressive territorial ape.
Other minds, that evolved in other ways, wouldn't have the same priorities.

Prove it.

[JimC]

I think that mm's point has some validity. Sex, position in a hierarchy and conflict were vitally important issues in hominid social life, so it's no surprise that our dramas, soap or serious, revolve around them. But I will go out on a limb and say that it is highly likely that aliens (if evolved in some form of social grouping) would have similar preoccupations...

[NineBerry]

Aliens maybe, but Angels not so much.

[JimC]

Aliens maybe, but Angels not so much.

Of course!

They're too busy dancing on the end of a pin, fucking party animals!

[mistermack]

..or, you know, interesting.

As I said, it's interesting to the soft squashy thing inside your head.

Prove it.

I could easily prove it. But the soft squashy thing inside your head wouldn't be able to follow it.

[mistermack]

I think that mm's point has some validity. Sex, position in a hierarchy and conflict were vitally important issues in hominid social life, so it's no surprise that our dramas, soap or serious, revolve around them. But I will go out on a limb and say that it is highly likely that aliens (if evolved in some form of social grouping) would have similar preoccupations...

That's if the aliens reproduced sexually. Or weren't like Bees or Ants. Or plants. Or mushrooms. Or intelligent machines, started off by now-extinct animals.

[Forty Two]

It's almost as if we have no idea what an alien species would be like, because we haven't a shred of evidence except for our own planet to go on. One hypothesis is that if live evolved like us here, then under similar circumstances it will evolve like us elsewhere. However, another is that the whole existence of our species is mainly due to happenstance, and that a planet almost exactly like earth could be populated by creatures very different from us. Another is that it takes a universe as big as ours to get one planet with life on it by chance. Perhaps in most universes in the multiverse there are one such planet or even zero. Since we have nothing to base any probabilities on, anyone's guess is anyone's guess. If one likes to think of the universe a huge thing with so many stars and planets that it is unlike that life exists only here, then that is basically presuppositionalist thinking, since we have no idea how many stars and planets have to exist for the odds of getting one life bearing planet in the mix. It may be that our universe is a rather small, mediocre universe in a nearly infinite foam of universes, and as such we are merely a speck of dust on a speck of dust among a cloud of similar specks.

Horton Hears a Who.