Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

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Re: Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

Post by JimC » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:27 am

pErvin wrote:Do you see reporting of Christian terrorists? Do you think you will see white (christian) man mass murder called "terrorism" as easily as Islamic mass murder? And what do you reckon the death toll is, excluding 9/11? It can't be much more than a few hundred.
Well, to be counted as christian terrorism, it would have to be done by people to claim (as the jihadists do) that it is in the service of their particular god. Aside from the odd abortion clinic murder, how many of them have there been?

As for the numbers of deaths caused by people who claim to be acting in the name of Allah, many hundreds, if not thousands - think of all the car bombs in Iraq (often targeting Shiites), and mosques in Pakistan... I've already made it clear that I'm not just talking about attacks in Western countries...
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Re: Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

Post by Svartalf » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:07 am

that guy who did a mass murder in that gay club in Florida, what was his motivation already?
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Re: Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

Post by JimC » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:16 am

Basically hating gays, but as far as I know, he didn't commit his crime while screaming "Jesus is great"...
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Re: Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

Post by Forty Two » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:33 am

Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Causality is individual. If one person says and acts as if they are motivated by a religion, cult or denomination, then that's what motivates him or her.
Yeah. Right. So next time someone says "The devil made me do it" I should take them by their word. Not gonna happen.
Why not? Even if they're nuts, they're telling you their motivation.

If they worship the Devil, and they say that the Devil commands them to kill apostates, and then they go out and kill apostates, I might lend them some credence. And, if segments of the Devil-worshiping population agreed that death is the appropriate punishment for apostates, then I would conclude that the guy in question killed because his religion commands apostates to be killed, and that a segment of his religious population agrees with that as appropriate action.

I think that when it comes to such beliefs, like the killing of apostates, the religious population tends to have a higher level of apostate-murderers in their midst, because, well, religions are the ones that teach about the ills and sins of apostasy. Secular belief systems generally reflect a willingness to allow people to change their views.

Hermit wrote: Here's a well known fact, Forty Two. Well known to many, but evidently not to you:
Maybe not, there is no shame in not knowing what someone else considers a "well known fact." We tend to know different things, and some more than others, but not everyone knows everything. What's weird is why you sometimes feel the need to sprinkle these kind of passive-aggressive insults in with this discussion. It makes you appear to be taking this discussion personally. Even if we disagree here, Hermit, that's o.k. You have a point of view, and I have a point of view. Your jibes seem to be intended to belittle me, or suggest that my argument fails because I'm missing some obvious point that you find quite obvious. Whether or not that's the case, there's no need to be insulting.
Hermit wrote:
People often do things for reasons other than they think they do them for. Especially when the thing they do is to lash out at someone or something else.
Sure, and they often do things FOR the reasons they have. Don't they?
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Re: Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

Post by Hermit » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:42 am

Forty Two wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Causality is individual. If one person says and acts as if they are motivated by a religion, cult or denomination, then that's what motivates him or her.
Yeah. Right. So next time someone says "The devil made me do it" I should take them by their word. Not gonna happen.
Why not?
Because people often do things for reasons other than they think they do them for. Especially when the thing they do is to lash out at someone or something else.
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Re: Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

Post by laklak » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:33 pm

JimC wrote:Basically hating gays, but as far as I know, he didn't commit his crime while screaming "Jesus is great"...
Well, he was Muslim, so there's that...
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:35 pm

JimC wrote:
pErvin wrote:Do you see reporting of Christian terrorists? Do you think you will see white (christian) man mass murder called "terrorism" as easily as Islamic mass murder? And what do you reckon the death toll is, excluding 9/11? It can't be much more than a few hundred.
Well, to be counted as christian terrorism, it would have to be done by people to claim (as the jihadists do) that it is in the service of their particular god. Aside from the odd abortion clinic murder, how many of them have there been?
Two that come to mind are Anders Brevik and that black church Massacre in the US last year.
As for the numbers of deaths caused by people who claim to be acting in the name of Allah, many hundreds, if not thousands - think of all the car bombs in Iraq (often targeting Shiites), and mosques in Pakistan... I've already made it clear that I'm not just talking about attacks in Western countries...
But I was referring to western countries. See my post above.
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Re: Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

Post by JimC » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:16 pm

pErvin wrote:
JimC wrote:
pErvin wrote:Do you see reporting of Christian terrorists? Do you think you will see white (christian) man mass murder called "terrorism" as easily as Islamic mass murder? And what do you reckon the death toll is, excluding 9/11? It can't be much more than a few hundred.
Well, to be counted as christian terrorism, it would have to be done by people to claim (as the jihadists do) that it is in the service of their particular god. Aside from the odd abortion clinic murder, how many of them have there been?
Two that come to mind are Anders Brevik and that black church Massacre in the US last year.
As for the numbers of deaths caused by people who claim to be acting in the name of Allah, many hundreds, if not thousands - think of all the car bombs in Iraq (often targeting Shiites), and mosques in Pakistan... I've already made it clear that I'm not just talking about attacks in Western countries...
But I was referring to western countries. See my post above.
I think that the Anders Brevik and the black church Massacre were more examples of hatred of immigrants and blacks, but there may also have been a christian fanatic tinge, I suppose...

I don't think it's reasonable to leave out the carnage committed by jihadists in the third world when making a comparison between Islamic-inspired and christian-inspired acts of terror. To do so would be very western-centric... :tea:
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Re: Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

Post by Svartalf » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:37 pm

laklak wrote:
JimC wrote:Basically hating gays, but as far as I know, he didn't commit his crime while screaming "Jesus is great"...
Well, he was Muslim, so there's that...
ooops :shifty:
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Re: Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

Post by mistermack » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:11 pm

Hermit wrote:
mistermack wrote:If one mosquito in a hundred thousand gave a fatal bite, that would be good enough reason to take precautions against mosquitoes, and try to avoid the nasty little fuckers.

There are 1.5 billion muslims in the world. A small proportion are a deadly problem.
We need to spray them. Maybe we can develop something that stops them breeding?
If one car driver in a hundred thousand caused a fatal traffic accident...
That's a very good point, (for you).

We should make muslims pass an annual safety test, and not let them loose without proper terrorism insurance.
And if they fail the test, scrap em.
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Re: Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:21 pm

Excuse me sir, do you have registration papers for that Muslim?
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Re: Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

Post by laklak » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:24 pm

I'll need to see your Muslim registration, license, and insurance please.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

Post by Rum » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:28 pm

And a device fitted to the back of the neck which, when the Muslim Safety check is failed can be detonated remotely..?

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Re: Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

Post by JimC » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:04 pm

Now you're talkin'!

:hehe:
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Re: Mini-skirts in Saudi - Shock horror!

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:14 am

Forty Two wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:even though most religious people do not act out in accordance with their beliefs, that does not mean that having deeply held religious beliefs does not motivate behavior.
Yes. Quite. Nevertheless it remains really difficult to explain why the majority of Muslims are not terrorists, or why terrorism is not equally prevalent in time and location.
It's not difficult to explain. Most people of whatever nationality are about the same as most other people. We're all born with similar brains, and that's where our consciences and morality sits. Most people are born and raised that it's bad to hurt other people. Religion goes against that tendency among humans to not want to hurt each other by trying to build up an exception to that morality that it is good and desirable to hurt those that are in opposition to "us."

The Bible does that, by suggesting that "thou shalt not murder" but the writers don't give a second thought to massacring and raping the people in the other tribe that are not of the same religion. They are opponents of god, and it's not murder to kill the opponents of god.

What religion does is increase the number of people in a society that will act out in that manner. Look at the stats in Islamic countries. They have x% that will do the deeds, and then (x+y)% that will support those who will do the deeds (even though they themselves will not do the deeds). So, like, in our western, secular societies, there are very few religious people (call it "v") who would murder apostates, in a country where the State religion mandates death as the penalty for apostates, then some higher number, v+x, will be willing to murder apostates. And, v+x+y will be willing to say they think it's right that apostates be murdered, even though they themselves won't do the murdering.

It would be surprising for all Muslims to be apostate-murderers, just as we would be surprised to learn that all Christians were abortion doctor killers. But, just as we get more abortion doctor killers as we get more extreme, fundamentalist Christians around, we get more terrorists going after infidels, Jews and apostates with a greater degree of fundamentalist Islam around.
Hermit wrote:
The same applies to Christianity. Once upon a time verses such as Matthew 10:34, Luke 19:27 and Luke 14:26 were taken quite literally, and they caused hundreds of thousands of Christians to behave very much the way today's Islamic terrorists do, conducting holy wars, indiscriminately slaying man woman and child. They took those words very literally.
Indeed, but not all, and not most. But, enough to where it was a significant problem. That's why it's important for religions to be reformed, and for States to not mix with Church or Mosque. Religion is a powerful thing, as it becomes the among the most deeply held beliefs that people have, and people often support actions in conformity with their most deeply held beliefs and in some cases, things that would otherwise be thought immoral become moral imperatives because they are handed a divine warrant.
Hermit wrote: It's a rare Sunday indeed, in which a cleric will base a sermon on them today, and if he does, he'll be at pains to thoroughly recontextualise and reinterpret them. Just parables and all that. Don't take them literally, people. More likely, though, those verses are simply ignored even while they remain in the new testament. I see no reason why this cannot happen with the equivalent surahs in the Qur'an. In fact, as far as the vast majority of Muslims is concerned, it already has.
Well, I'm not concerned with the vast majority of Muslims. They can believe what they like. What I'm concerned with are the small, but plenty big enough, percentage that act out violently because of their religion.


So the question is not "what in the scriptures is it that turns people into monsters?" It is "what makes people cherry pick the monstrous bits of their scriptures at one time and not another?"
I never asked the former question, and I agree with the latter. Somehow, people wind up concluding that killing civilians is not only in accord with but commanded by their religion. Something happens in their heads to convince them of that, and give them the sack to carry it out. I have no idea of the answer to that question. Brainwashing. Mass hypnosis. I don't know. But, the religion is to blame, particularly where the people acting out say that they are doing it for religious reasons.

To say, for example, that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam is absurd. All that means is that ISIS has nothing to do with some other peoples' conception of Islam. However, ISIS says they are motivated by Islam. They quote the holy books they are following. They follow their Islam. Therefore, their religion is to blame.
Indeed, and let's not forget that religion is just a subset of ideology....
  • To say, for example, that white-supremacism has nothing to do with Nazi ideology is absurd. All that means is that white-supremacism has nothing to do with some other peoples' conception of Nazism. However, white-supremacists say they are motivated by that ideology. They quote the books they are following. They follow their Nazi ideology. Therefore, their ideology is to blame.
My point is that religion isn't a special or particular case, nor a special or particular issue or problem - even if it is a particular concern at present. For me, the problem lies in the human inclination to outsource our morals and ethics to external authorities, and particularly to (predominantly self-declared) authorities who are able to trigger us emotionally - such that we might say: That authority is right because they (say they are, and) are right, and I am right (and therefore) justified) because I endorse and/or accept what 'they' say about the world and what I should think, say, do, and be. The self-reinforcing feedback loop between acolyte and authority should not be ignored here either - rampant ideologues need followers, and those seeking to be led need something and someone to follow.

The other, complimentary problem of course is humans' capacity for violence, particularly in social and ethical settings where (invariably male) capacities and expressions of violence are identified as a socially-elevating personal virtue. Ideologies like religion may seek to ennoble violence - generally through a combination of an ends-justifies-the-means excuse tied to the convenient, self-serving absolution that the victims of violence somehow warrant their own mistreatment - but really, ideological violence (religious or otherwise) is merely gangsterism in fancy trousers.
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