Universal Basic Income thread

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Would you support it if it was economically cheaper than your current welfare system?

Yes
6
38%
Yes, why wouldn't I?
7
44%
No
1
6%
No, class warfare for me!
0
No votes
No (== Seth)
0
No votes
Cheese
1
6%
Dev
1
6%
 
Total votes: 16

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Re: Universal Basic Income thread

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:26 am

laklak wrote:Anyone remember the movie THX 1138? They went to work in factories and made these plastic cubes. Then they took the cubes home and destroyed them in a disposal unit. You had to work, and you had to destroy a certain number of cubes, that was the entire basis of their economy. Pretty much everything else was done by machines. That's what we're headed for. You can't just create money, at least not in any sort of economic system we've created so far,
That's exactly what we do now. See my exceedingly long and boring treatise on money creation - https://politicsforpeoplenotcorporation ... no-really/
and in fact I'd argue that a hell of a lot of "work" that happens out in the Real World accomplishes approximately jack shit in real terms.
Yeah, this is very true. And it's particularly relevant to the issue of a UBI when we consider the welfare bureaucracy. Under a UBI the welfare bureaucracy becomes just this type of job.
But you have to have "money" circulating around.
Again you are right, with reference to capitalism. If consumers don't have money or an equivalent (or some method of obtaining it) then the whole economy falls over in a screaming heap. So there's no doubt whatsoever that whatever a future capitalistic economic system looks like, it's got to have a way of getting money into the hands of consumers (i.e. everyone, but particularly the non-capitalist class). There's a variety of ways that have been proposed, and I've been meaning to look deeply into all of them and write a big blog post summarising it all. Without having investigated them all, I can't be certain on their relative merits, but a number of Silicon Valley tech execs (including Bill Gates) have proposed what seems like a good idea to specifically tax automated production to create a good chunk of that money. And it makes sense from both a pragmatic and a fairness perspective. Regarding the latter, consider that businesses are eventually going to see such ridiculous productivity increases leading to ridiculous increases in profits (if consumerism can be sustained). So with falling human employment that just means even wider wealth inequality in society (and it's already now at record levels in modern history (at least the last 100 years)).

Regarding the idea that people "have to work", I disagree. It's not human work that is critical (when sufficiently replaced by automation). The flow of money through the economy is what is critical (in a capitalist system). And remember, money itself is only a placeholder for value. So what's most important is that value (i.e. products and services) is continued to be outputted by the economy. Money itself isn't the critical component. As a placeholder, it can just be created and destroyed as we wish, governed by whatever reasoning we can justify and sustain. At the moment most money creation (somewhere between about 95-97% if my understanding is correct) and destruction is governed by the free market. But there's no actual need for money creation to be that way. In fact there's a lot of good arguments to have a lot less money creation in the hands of profit driven banks (see my blog post above). The most obvious one is the fuelling of speculative real estate bubbles (and other valueless financial transactions) which add little actual value to the economy, and lead to events like the GFC.
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Re: Universal Basic Income thread

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:47 am

Here's a really interesting article about the concepts of worthless jobs, and also ties in some of the thoughts about money creation and banks that I've talked about. - http://evonomics.com/why-garbage-men-sh ... n-bankers/

An excerpt:
Why Garbagemen Should Earn More Than Bankers
How more and more people are making money without contributing anything of value

By Rutger Bregman

Thick fog envelops City Hall Park at daybreak on February 2, 1968. Seven thousand New York City sanitation workers stand crowded together, their mood rebellious. Union spokesman John DeLury addresses the multitude from the roof of a truck. When he announces that the mayor has refused further concessions, the crowd’s anger threatens to boil over. As the first rotten eggs sail overhead, DeLury realizes the time for compromise is over. It’s time to take the illegal route, the path prohibited to sanitation workers for the simple reason that the job they do is too important.

It’s time to strike.

The next day, trash goes uncollected throughout the Big Apple. Nearly all the city’s garbage crews have stayed home. “We’ve never had prestige, and it never bothered me before,” one garbageman is quoted in a local newspaper. “But it does now. People treat us like dirt.”

When the mayor goes out to survey the situation two days later, the city is already knee-deep in refuse, with another 10,000 tons added every day. A rank stench begins to percolate through the city’s streets, and rats have been sighted in even the swankiest parts of town. In the space of just a few days, one of the world’s most iconic cities has started to look like a slum. And for the first time since the polio epidemic of 1931, city authorities declare a state of emergency.

Still the mayor refuses to budge. He has the local press on his side, which portrays the strikers as greedy narcissists. It takes a week before the realization begins to kick in: The garbagemen are actually going to win. “New York is helpless before them,” the editors of The New York Times despair. “This greatest of cities must surrender or see itself sink in filth.” Nine days into the strike, when the trash has piled up to 100,000 tons, the sanitation workers get their way. “The moral of the story,” Time Magazine later reported, “is that it pays to strike.”

Perhaps, but not in every profession.

Imagine, for instance, that all of Washington’s 100,000 lobbyists were to go on strike tomorrow. Or that every tax accountant in Manhattan decided to stay home. It seems unlikely the mayor would announce a state of emergency. In fact, it’s unlikely that either of these scenarios would do much damage. A strike by, say, social media consultants, telemarketers, or high-frequency traders might never even make the news at all.

When it comes to garbage collectors, though, it’s different. Any way you look at it, they do a job we can’t do without. And the harsh truth is that an increasing number of people do jobs that we can do just fine without. Were they to suddenly stop working the world wouldn’t get any poorer, uglier, or in any way worse. Take the slick Wall Street traders who line their pockets at the expense of another retirement fund. Take the shrewd lawyers who can draw a corporate lawsuit out until the end of days. Or take the brilliant ad writer who pens the slogan of the year and puts the competition right out of business.

Instead of creating wealth, these jobs mostly just shift it around.

Of course, there’s no clear line between who creates wealth and who shifts it. Lots of jobs do both. There’s no denying that the financial sector can contribute to our wealth and grease the wheels of other sectors in the process. Banks can help to spread risks and back people with bright ideas. And yet, these days, banks have become so big that much of what they do is merely shuffle wealth around, or even destroy it. Instead of growing the pie, the explosive expansion of the banking sector has increased the share it serves itself.

Or take the legal profession. It goes without saying that the rule of law is necessary for a country to prosper. But now that the U.S. has 17 times the number of lawyers per capita as Japan, does that make American rule of law 17 times as effective? Or Americans 17 times as protected? Far from it. Some law firms even make a practice of buying up patents for products they have no intention of producing, purely to enable them to sue people for copyright infringement.

Bizarrely, it’s precisely the jobs that shift money around – creating next to nothing of tangible value – that net the best salaries. It’s a fascinating, paradoxical state of affairs. How is it possible that all those agents of prosperity – the teachers, the police officers, the nurses – are paid so poorly, while the unimportant, superfluous, and even destructive shifters do so well?

......

When Bankers Struck

“CLOSURE OF BANKS.”

On May 4, 1970, this notice ran in the Irish Independent. After lengthy but fruitless negotiations over wages that had failed to keep pace with inflation, Ireland’s bank employees decided to go on strike.

Overnight, 85% of the country’s reserves were locked down. With all indications suggesting that the strike could last a while, businesses across Ireland began to hoard cash. Two weeks into the strike, The Irish Times reported that half of the country’s 7,000 bankers had already booked flights to London in search of other work.

At the outset, pundits predicted that life in Ireland would come to a standstill. First, cash supplies would dry up, then trade would stagnate, and finally unemployment would explode. “Imagine all the veins in your body suddenly shrinking and collapsing,” one economist described the prevailing fear, “and you might begin to see how economists conceive of banking shutdowns.” Heading into the summer of 1970, Ireland braced itself for the worst.

And then something odd happened. Or more accurately, nothing much happened at all.

In July, the The Times of England reported that the “figures and trends which are available indicate that the dispute has not had an adverse effect on the economy so far.” A few months later, the Central Bank of Ireland drew up the final balance. “The Irish economy continued to function for a reasonably long period of time with its main clearing banks closed for business,” it concluded. Not only that, the economy had continued to grow.

In the end, the strike would last a whole six months – 20 times as long as the New York City sanitation workers’ strike. But whereas across the pond a state of emergency had been declared after just six days, Ireland was still going strong after six months without bankers. “The main reason I cannot recollect much about the bank strike,” an Irish journalist reflected in 2013, “was because it did not have a debilitating impact on daily life.”

But without bankers, what did they do for money?

Something quite simple: The Irish started issuing their own cash. After the bank closures, they continued writing checks to one another as usual, the only difference being that they could no longer be cashed at the bank. Instead, that other dealer in liquid assets – the Irish pub – stepped in to fill the void. At a time when the Irish still stopped for a pint at their local pub at least three times a week, everyone – and especially the bartender – had a pretty good idea who could be trusted. “The managers of these retail outlets and public houses had a high degree of information about their customers,” explains the economist Antoin Murphy. “One does not after all serve drink to someone for years without discovering something of his liquid resources.”

In no time, people forged a radically decentralized monetary system with the country’s 11,000 pubs as its key nodes and basic trust as its underlying mechanism. By the time the banks finally reopened in November, the Irish had printed an incredible £5 billion in homemade currency. Some checks had been issued by companies, others were scribbled on the backs of cigar boxes, or even on toilet paper. According to historians, the reason the Irish were able to manage so well without banks was all down to social cohesion.

So were there no problems at all?

No, of course there were problems. Take the guy who bought a racehorse on credit and then paid the debt with money he won when his horse came in first – basically, gambling with another person’s cash. It sounds an awful lot like what banks do now, but then on a smaller scale. And, during the strike, Irish companies had a harder time acquiring capital for big investments. Indeed, the very fact that people began do-it-yourself banking makes it patently clear that they couldn’t do without some kind of financial sector.

But what they could do perfectly well without was all the smoke and mirrors, all the risky speculation, the glittering skyscrapers, and the towering bonuses paid out of taxpayers’ pockets. “Maybe, just maybe,” the author and economist Umair Haque conjectures, “banks need people a lot more than people need banks.”
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Re: Universal Basic Income thread

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:22 am

Just wanted to add a little more to that quote (this bit isn't really relevant to the thread; it's just a good point), but the edit time has elapsed:
Let’s get one thing straight, however. Making money without creating anything of value is anything but easy. It takes talent, ambition, and brains. And the banking world is brimming with clever minds. “The genius of the great speculative investors is to see what others do not, or to see it earlier,” explains the economist Roger Bootle. “This is a skill. But so is the ability to stand on tiptoe, balancing on one leg, while holding a pot of tea above your head, without spillage.”

In other words, the fact that something is difficult does not automatically make it valuable.

In recent decades those clever minds have concocted all manner of complex financial products that don’t create wealth, but destroy it. These products are, essentially, like a tax on the rest of the population. Who do you think is paying for all those custom-tailored suits, mansions, and luxury yachts? If bankers aren’t generating the underlying value themselves, then it has to come from somewhere – or someone – else. The government isn’t the only one redistributing wealth. The financial sector does it, too, but without a democratic mandate.

The bottom line is that wealth can be concentrated somewhere, but that doesn’t also mean that’s where it’s being created. This is just as true for your former feudal landowner as it is for the current CEO of Goldman Sachs. The only difference is that bankers sometimes have a momentary lapse and imagine themselves the great creators of all this wealth. The lord who was proud to live off his peasants’ labor suffered no such delusions.
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Re: Universal Basic Income thread

Post by PsychoSerenity » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:42 am

Beatsong wrote:
Beatsong wrote:So you want to tax all those people more, by (for example) taking away the tax-free allowance (which is how the Greens conceived of doing it in the UK), so you can give the money back to them as UBI. What is that going to achieve?
Interestingly I just found the Green Party's consultation paper for a citizen's income from 2015:

https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/assets ... 0Paper.pdf

In brief, their figures for a UBI of £80 pw (I don't know why it got changed to £72 in news reports at the time) are:

Cost of UBI: £321 billion

Savings from abolishing other benefits: £164 billion

Tax increases, by removing personal allowance etc, to pay for the remainder: £157 billion

The document details what other benefits would have to exist (eg housing benefit, and a supplement for single mothers) which, to be fair, do look considerably simplified compared to the current system. But the fact remains you can't really live on £80 pw, even with housing benefit paying some of your rent.

Here's an article from the left-leaning Guardian at the time, about research concluding that the scheme would massively disadvantage te poorest:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -hits-poor
:lol: You reckon the Guardian is left-leaning? That article is simply WRONG. You note yourself there is a discrepancy between the £72 the article claims and £80 in the Green Party proposal. That's because the article was written without actually seeing the Green Party proposal. Malcolm Torry, the expert whose research the article is discussing, issued a clarification that the Guardian never published:
The Guardian made an assumption that the Green Party scheme was the same as the scheme that the Citizen’s Income Trust published in its introductory booklet 2013. But the Green Party had not published the details of its scheme, so this was not a valid assumption. The CIT scheme does generate losses, although mainly small ones. This is why we did some more research, which was published in an Institute for Economic and Social Research working paper in September 2014. This shows that it is possible to implement a CI of £72 per week which doesn’t generate losses, but only if residual means-tested benefits are retained and a household’s CIs are taken into account when their means-tested benefits are calculated. What the Green Party will put in its manifesto we still don’t know. For the avoidance of doubt: There is no conflict between the Citizen’s Income Trust and the Green Party.
And of course the Green Party had already taken into account the CIT's 2014 research, see point 7 on page 23 of the Green's proposal.
Beatsong wrote:In return for all this, they had to include an astronomical increase to the total tax burden to raise the £157 billion needed. Why anyone was supposed to be happy about losing their entire personal allowance and paying higher NI contributions just to get some of it back in UBI, I don't know. But the Greens ended up ditching it and not including it in their manifesto, when it became clear they couldn't make it work.

There would be other ways of doing it, of course. But I just can't see the point of trying so hard to find a way to give money to people that don't need it.
First of all the Greens did not "ditch it when it became clear they couldn't make it work", I know there was further media spin after that above where they manufactured a U-turn based on their own misunderstanding, but read the very first point of the Green's document - "This document is published in parallel with the 2015 General Election manifesto of the Green Party of England and Wales".

Secondly your "astronomical increase to the total tax burden" is not an increase, when you stop repeatedly ignoring that it's offsetting current tax breaks that are already given disproportionally more to higher earners i.e "people that don't need it", in favour of a flat-rate amount that everyone gets equally. The policy is cost-neutral, and the majority of people have a net gain. Look at the graph:
Net income comparison.png
Everyone earning less that £40K would be better off, and by getting rid of means testing there's no hellish two-month application process for benefits if you lose your job, and no risk of losing the benefits if your claim for whatever reason is rejected. And your comment "But the fact remains you can't really live on £80 pw" - that is still MORE than the government currently gives people to live on for equivalent benefits. Millions of people DO live on less than that and I had to myself when I was unemployed. It would have made life a hell of a lot less stressful if I hadn't been also facing the constant threat of it being cut completely, if I failed to comply with their numerous arbitrary rules.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: Universal Basic Income thread

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:34 am

Just how would the BMI be given out? It is not just the level but the practical application. The British authorities have not clue a clue who lives in the country. So you would have to have some form of registration and probably an ID card. How is the available work going to be divided? We know the advantages of BMI but the application of it has to be done securely. Britain or America are at present in no state to introduce it. There will a pilot running in part of Utrecht in 2018 but we have registration.
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Re: Universal Basic Income thread

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:47 am

By body mass index I reckon... :hehe:
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Re: Universal Basic Income thread

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:49 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Just how would the BMI be given out? It is not just the level but the practical application. The British authorities have not clue a clue who lives in the country. So you would have to have some form of registration and probably an ID card. How is the available work going to be divided? We know the advantages of BMI but the application of it has to be done securely. Britain or America are at present in no state to introduce it. There will a pilot running in part of Utrecht in 2018 but we have registration.
I don't see any of this as any impediment. If someone wants UBI (what person in poverty, at least, wouldn't?) the onus is on them to get on it. If they don't take the necessary steps, then they don't get it. And you still seem to be stuck in this strange view of work under such a system. Work can continue exactly as it is now. Why would it need to be any different? :think:
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Re: Universal Basic Income thread

Post by PsychoSerenity » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:54 am

Yes, leaving aside from the incorrect acronym, I already answered this last year. Since then with the continuing roll-out of Universal Credit it has become a requirement for anyone claiming any sort of benefits to have an online Government Gateway account through which tax, national insurance, and benefit payments can all be managed, with real time information now being used to update tax records from one week to the next straight from employer's payroll software, on to an employees account. Employee's could have the money put directly onto their payslip like we already do with tax codes for the Personal Allowance. Anyone else need merely enter some bank details or an address for a cheque to be posted to.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: Universal Basic Income thread

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:27 pm

PsychoSerenity wrote:Yes, leaving aside from the incorrect acronym, I already answered this last year. Since then with the continuing roll-out of Universal Credit it has become a requirement for anyone claiming any sort of benefits to have an online Government Gateway account through which tax, national insurance, and benefit payments can all be managed, with real time information now being used to update tax records from one week to the next straight from employer's payroll software, on to an employees account. Employee's could have the money put directly onto their payslip like we already do with tax codes for the Personal Allowance. Anyone else need merely enter some bank details or an address for a cheque to be posted to.
It is not the wrong acronym just depends in what country you live. Here it is the 'Basis Minimum Inkomen'. It is not universal credit either. Some call it Citizens Income. There are many acronyms.
That is not what you are talking about. What you wrote last year is of little importance It has nothing to with employees payroll You are comparing apples and oranges. It is completely separate and is for those working or not. Everyone gets it but there has to some for of registration to avoid fraud and the UK in its present state would not be able to do it. Just look at the trouble with trying to find out who was living in Grenfell Tower.
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Re: Universal Basic Income thread

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:02 pm

Why would registration be a problem?
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Re: Universal Basic Income thread

Post by PsychoSerenity » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:14 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
PsychoSerenity wrote:Yes, leaving aside from the incorrect acronym, I already answered this last year. Since then with the continuing roll-out of Universal Credit it has become a requirement for anyone claiming any sort of benefits to have an online Government Gateway account through which tax, national insurance, and benefit payments can all be managed, with real time information now being used to update tax records from one week to the next straight from employer's payroll software, on to an employees account. Employee's could have the money put directly onto their payslip like we already do with tax codes for the Personal Allowance. Anyone else need merely enter some bank details or an address for a cheque to be posted to.
It is not the wrong acronym just depends in what country you live. Here it is the 'Basis Minimum Inkomen'. It is not universal credit either. Some call it Citizens Income. There are many acronyms.
That is not what you are talking about. What you wrote last year is of little importance It has nothing to with employees payroll You are comparing apples and oranges. It is completely separate and is for those working or not. Everyone gets it but there has to some for of registration to avoid fraud and the UK in its present state would not be able to do it. Just look at the trouble with trying to find out who was living in Grenfell Tower.
That's a ridiculous comment. Of course they don't have a record of precisely where everyone is at any given time which is what would be necessary to know who was in Grenfell. But that doesn't mean they don't have a record of everyone who is legally working here and/or claiming benefits. Everyone has a unique National Insurance number which is linked to their name, most recent address, passport number if available, cross referenced with a load of other data, and carrying a history of their tax and NI payments/contributions and benefit records. It's all accessible through an individual's Government Gateway account which is updated every time a payment is made. The small number of people who may be living or working here illegally aren't going to be entitled to a basic income anyway, and if the want to claim it they would have to register and prove their entitlement.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: Universal Basic Income thread

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:03 pm

It is not a ridiculous comment. It is a very loose form of registration and in fact means nothing.
I worked in the British police I know how impossible it is to trace someone in Britain.
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Re: Universal Basic Income thread

Post by laklak » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:05 pm

Hermit wrote:I imagined it just now, and it looks really good.

I imagined the face being yours.
I'm wearing the Doc Martens.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Universal Basic Income thread

Post by Hermit » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:21 pm

laklak wrote:
Hermit wrote:I imagined it just now, and it looks really good.

I imagined the face being yours.
I'm wearing the Doc Martens.
It's not your feet that need protection.

Image
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Re: Universal Basic Income thread

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:45 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:It is not a ridiculous comment. It is a very loose form of registration and in fact means nothing.
I worked in the British police I know how impossible it is to trace someone in Britain.
Just stop and try and understand what we are saying to you. You've got it the wrong way around. The government isn't trying to find people who don't want to be found. Anyone who isn't yet known for some legitimate reason is coming to the government of their own volition.
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