UK Concentration camps for Mussies?

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Re: UK Concentration camps for Mussies?

Post by Hermit » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:34 am

Brian Peacock wrote:I'd accept that. But speculatively populating internment camps is an entirely different proposition.
It's been tried, and here are the results.
JimC wrote:...if society wants to adhere to the legal niceties (for generally good reasons, I concede) then it may have to accept that there will be circumstances where innocent deaths would occur that were preventable by certain actions by security forces...
Once again: They are not legal niceties. Due process and habeas corpus are the core of our protection from arbitrary arrest. Franklin's well known 1755 statement applies: Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
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Re: UK Concentration camps for Mussies?

Post by JimC » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:50 am

But if jihadist terrorists are viewed as enemy soldiers (or traitors with allegiance to a foreign power and murderous intent, if already citizens), then a different set of legal restrictions may be said to apply. My comparison earlier was to enemy (or local but traitorous) spies and saboteurs in WW2 Britain. No habeas corpus for them, methinks...
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Re: UK Concentration camps for Mussies?

Post by Tyrannical » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:25 am

Even if they are in an internment camp, they are allowed to leave the country. In fact, they are encouraged too.
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Re: UK Concentration camps for Mussies?

Post by rainbow » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:33 am

Tyrannical wrote:Even if they are in an internment camp, they are allowed to leave the country. In fact, they are encouraged too.
Please try to make sense.
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Re: UK Concentration camps for Mussies?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:36 am

That's asking a bit much.
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Re: UK Concentration camps for Mussies?

Post by NineBerry » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:43 am

JimC wrote:But if jihadist terrorists are viewed as enemy soldiers (or traitors with allegiance to a foreign power and murderous intent, if already citizens), then a different set of legal restrictions may be said to apply. My comparison earlier was to enemy (or local but traitorous) spies and saboteurs in WW2 Britain. No habeas corpus for them, methinks...
It is very well agreed that the practice of for example the US to intern its own citizens just because of their descent was wrong. If someone is a spies or traitors, we need prove of that... Again you just seem to have the idea that there are some people that we "know" are terrorists. But how do we "know"? Given rule of law, the state can only when there is evidence and a court of law to rule on that evidence, not because some shady secret agents claim there is.

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Re: UK Concentration camps for Mussies?

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:12 am

JimC wrote:The point I was trying to make was that jihadist terrorists are not in the same category as domestic criminals, even if they are technically citizens. They have declared war on western countries and societies. How did Britain treat spies and saboteurs with Nazi loyalties in WW2? I don't think legal kid gloves were employed...
Some nebulous associations of malicious goons 'declaring war' is one thing. Western countries declaring war is another, and the difference matters. If one of those malicious goons is a citizen, they are in fact in the same category as domestic criminals, because the country has not declared war, and is not at war. Putting a country into what is essentially a notional state of war that can be expected to last indefinitely is nothing but an invitation to tyranny. The comparison between jihadists and spies/saboteurs during WWII fails, because the UK is not at war with militant radical Islamism, despite the spittle-flecked ravings of this or that jihadi.
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Re: UK Concentration camps for Mussies?

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:14 am

All those who think internment camps are a good idea should be rounded up! :whistle:
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Re: UK Concentration camps for Mussies?

Post by laklak » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:19 pm

Oceania is at war with Eastasia. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

It's convenient to have a state of permanent war.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: UK Concentration camps for Mussies?

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:54 pm

Why do you hate your country so? ;)
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Re: UK Concentration camps for Mussies?

Post by JimC » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:08 pm

L'Emmerdeur wrote:
JimC wrote:The point I was trying to make was that jihadist terrorists are not in the same category as domestic criminals, even if they are technically citizens. They have declared war on western countries and societies. How did Britain treat spies and saboteurs with Nazi loyalties in WW2? I don't think legal kid gloves were employed...
Some nebulous associations of malicious goons 'declaring war' is one thing. Western countries declaring war is another, and the difference matters. If one of those malicious goons is a citizen, they are in fact in the same category as domestic criminals, because the country has not declared war, and is not at war. Putting a country into what is essentially a notional state of war that can be expected to last indefinitely is nothing but an invitation to tyranny. The comparison between jihadists and spies/saboteurs during WWII fails, because the UK is not at war with militant radical Islamism, despite the spittle-flecked ravings of this or that jihadi.
However, ISIS declares itself a state. If a jihadist pledges allegiance to that state, they are an enemy combatant, whose legal treatment legitimately differs from the treatment of civilians. And my main point still remains; although hopefully the majority of intelligence and police work that detects potential terror attacks will provide enough evidence for normal court proceedings, it is only too possible that the information received, although strongly indicating a terror plot, may fall into the grey area of insufficient evidence for normal court proceedings. In these rare and specific circumstances, given someone who in every real sense of the word is an enemy combatant, I would prefer the state to act, rather than remain paralysed by laws designed to protect its own citizens and allow innocents to die. So, do not categorise my intent as "let's round them all up and shove them in camps" but rather a nuanced argument about actions required in relatively rare but truly dangerous situations.
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Re: UK Concentration camps for Mussies?

Post by Hermit » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:05 pm

JimC wrote:
L'Emmerdeur wrote:
JimC wrote:The point I was trying to make was that jihadist terrorists are not in the same category as domestic criminals, even if they are technically citizens. They have declared war on western countries and societies. How did Britain treat spies and saboteurs with Nazi loyalties in WW2? I don't think legal kid gloves were employed...
Some nebulous associations of malicious goons 'declaring war' is one thing. Western countries declaring war is another, and the difference matters. If one of those malicious goons is a citizen, they are in fact in the same category as domestic criminals, because the country has not declared war, and is not at war. Putting a country into what is essentially a notional state of war that can be expected to last indefinitely is nothing but an invitation to tyranny. The comparison between jihadists and spies/saboteurs during WWII fails, because the UK is not at war with militant radical Islamism, despite the spittle-flecked ravings of this or that jihadi.
However, ISIS declares itself a state. If a jihadist pledges allegiance to that state, they are an enemy combatant, whose legal treatment legitimately differs from the treatment of civilians. And my main point still remains; although hopefully the majority of intelligence and police work that detects potential terror attacks will provide enough evidence for normal court proceedings, it is only too possible that the information received, although strongly indicating a terror plot, may fall into the grey area of insufficient evidence for normal court proceedings. In these rare and specific circumstances, given someone who in every real sense of the word is an enemy combatant, I would prefer the state to act, rather than remain paralysed by laws designed to protect its own citizens and allow innocents to die. So, do not categorise my intent as "let's round them all up and shove them in camps" but rather a nuanced argument about actions required in relatively rare but truly dangerous situations.
Yes, ISIS declares itself a state. And it gets the living daylights bombed out of it without anyone issuing arrest warrants or demanding that members of ISIS be charged before a court or released.

The matter is different with suspected terrorists. Allowing individuals to be imprisoned without regard to what you keep calling "legal niceties" is a different matter. Such an approach always finishes up destroying the lives of hundreds or thousands of innocents at best and destroying civic freedoms and liberties at worst. There is not one instance where this has not happened in recorded history. Right now Duerte and Erdogan are pursuing such a policy.
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Re: UK Concentration camps for Mussies?

Post by JimC » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:22 pm

So, nothing other than a slippery slope argument...
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Re: UK Concentration camps for Mussies?

Post by Jason » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:28 pm

JimC wrote:Prioritising the top 100 and arresting them based on a clear risk to life and limb might be reasonable, if the intelligence on their activities is compelling enough...
Would this "intelligence" be subject to public review or would it all be conducted in secrecy behind the impermeable veil of "preserving methods and sources in the interest of national security?"

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Re: UK Concentration camps for Mussies?

Post by JimC » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:40 pm

Śiva wrote:
JimC wrote:Prioritising the top 100 and arresting them based on a clear risk to life and limb might be reasonable, if the intelligence on their activities is compelling enough...
Would this "intelligence" be subject to public review or would it all be conducted in secrecy behind the impermeable veil of "preserving methods and sources in the interest of national security?"
I know what you are implying, the slippery slope to a police state, and I realise the danger. However, a rigid adherence to (just to annoy Hermit...) "the legal niceties" could, at least potentially, paralyse action which could save lives. Rather than endlessly re-stating what we can all agree on, that legal oversight and protection from arbitrary arrest is a very important part of our system, we need to at least consider potential downsides in certain specific situations, where self-described enemy combatants may use our inability to act to achieve their evil aims.
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