The Ethics of Punching Nazis

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Tue May 30, 2017 5:10 pm

The public musings of Buchal aren't helping the Republican party in Oregon. Bringing in "3 Percenters" and "Oath Keepers" to provide security is particularly problematic. The image the 3 Percenters present of themselves:

Image

One state to the east, we find them doing the "I ain't a racist but" boogaloo: "‘III Percenters’ Ride Wave of Islamophobia in Idaho to Lead Anti-Refugee Protests"
Waving American flags and several large black banners emblazoned with their movement’s “III% Idaho” logo, a crowd of about 100 like-minded antigovernment extremists crowded onto the steps of the Idaho Capitol in Boise to protest the state’s ongoing program to help resettle Muslim refugees from Syria.

“Now, refugees coming from Islamic hotbeds of terrorism, don’t you think that poses a threat to Idaho communities?” shouted III% of Idaho spokesman Chris McIntire into a bullhorn.

“YEAH!!!!” shouted the gathered protesters.

Across the street, however, a slightly smaller crowd of about seventy counter-protesters gathered in a park facing the Capitol steps. And their message was clear from the large banner they unfurled: “We Welcome All Refugees to Boise.”

That group was organized by members of the local Interfaith Alliance, and came together more or less spontaneously in the days before the gathering. Other signs read: “Idaho is Too Great to Hate” and “Love One Another."

Their presence clearly got under the skin of the “III Percenters.” At one point, McIntire’s rant against the refugees was interrupted by a loud cheer from the crowd across the street. Seemingly annoyed, he flicked on the siren on his bullhorn, which evoked a cheer from his compatriots. Throughout the rest of his speech, he kept referring to “those on the other side.”

Brandon Curtiss, president of III% of Idaho, directed his ire at the counter-protesters. “This isn’t some made-up crap we’re spewing out here, like they’re leading you to believe across the way. Are we racist?” he shouted.

“No!!!” the crowd responded.“Look among our crowd at how many diverse people are in here,” Curtiss continued. “All colors, races, creeds, and religions are here. Do you see racists?”

“No!!!!” cried the crowd.

“That’s what they want you to believe over there,” Curtiss said. “But that’s not what we do. We stand for our rights!” Another cheer.

“And it ain’t gonna happen on three percent of Idaho’s watch!”

The object of their ire was the College of Southern Idaho’s refugee resettlement program, which has been helping people fleeing war- and conflict-torn countries resettle in the Twin Falls, Idaho, area for some 30 years. In recent months, as word spread that the program planned to take in several hundred refugees from Syria’s bloody civil war, resistance to the program has become a hot political topic in the Magic Valley, much of it reflective of the recent nationwide tide of Islamophobia.

...

The movement is largely the brainchild of Michael Vanderboegh, the onetime militiaman who in recent years has been specializing in incendiary rhetoric supporting the notion that any attempts at federal gun control will spark a new civil war, or better yet, a new revolution.

Indeed, just about any kind of federal action inspires such warnings from Vanderboegh. “The health care law carries … the hard steel fist of government violence at the center,” he declared after the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act. “If we refuse to obey, we will be fined. If we refuse to pay the fine, we will in time be jailed. If we refuse to report meekly to jail, we will be sent for by armed men. And if we refuse their violent invitation at the doorsteps of our own homes we will be killed — unless we kill them first.”

He also freely suggests imminent violence. A 2012 post at his blog, Sipsey Street Irregulars, titled “Vote,” advised going to the polls but added: “At least later on you can say you tried everything else before you were forced to shoot people in righteous self-defense of life and liberty.”

In the past year, the III Percenters have formed an open alliance with the similarly extremist Oath Keepers, especially as Vanderboegh has shown up at anti-gun-control protests in Washington state and elsewhere, giving speeches in which he threatens violent revolt. The alliance originated at the Bundy Ranch standoff in April 2014, where the Oath Keepers and “III Percenters” joined arms in what became an internal revolt at the encampment in Nevada. (One of the hangers-on at the Bundy Camp, Jared Miller, listed the “Three Percenter Nation” as a favorite on his Facebook page sometime before he and his wife went on a murderous cop-killing rampage in Las Vegas two months after the standoff.)

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by Forty Two » Tue May 30, 2017 5:48 pm

Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:I read a few articles on this - anyone know what the facts of the dispute are? What was the "hate speech" that the woman was being subjected to and how was she being subjected to it? And, what did the people who got killed do when they intervened? I'm not seeing much clarity.
Well, Jeremy Christian was deeply offended by the presence of brown sluts and courteously said exactly that. Of course he had to defend himself from the loutish objections by Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche, Rick Best, and Micah David-Cole Fletcher. Of course, being outnumbered by voices 3:1 he had to safeguard his life by stabbing two of them to death and attempting to kill the third. Tongues can be really sharp, you know?

I hope that provides the clarity you seek.
It doesn't, actually. Do you have a link?

Nobody knows what Jeremy Christian was or wasn't offended by. I am curious what witnesses are reporting he actually said out loud. Then, the folks that intervened, I'm wondering what they did. Did they intervene by saying "hey, dude, shut your mouth,"or words to that effect, or did they do something else? Who initiated physical force first?

I wish I could take the word of blogs and tweets, but everybody lies. So, I have to go by the evidence, which the article include very little. I've been looking for something that says "witnesses report Jeremy Dickface saying X, Y and Z..." and "witnesses report Mr. Good Samaritan intervening by telling Dickface to calm down..." and then Dickface stabbed him. Something like that.

This whole - Jeremy Dickface was committing "hate speech" and Mr. Good Samaritan intervened to defend the Muslim women being subjected to "hate speech" and then Mr. Good Samaritan was stabbed to death, does not tell us all we need to know to make a determination. for example, if Mr. Good Samaritan initiated physical force, then no matter how much of a dick Jeremy Dickface was, the prosecution is going to have problem....
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by Hermit » Tue May 30, 2017 6:08 pm

Forty Two wrote:I've been looking for something that says "witnesses report Jeremy Dickface saying X, Y and Z..." and "witnesses report Mr. Good Samaritan intervening by telling Dickface to calm down..." and then Dickface stabbed him. Something like that.
You know that is the most unlikely scenario ever, don't you?
Forty Two wrote:...if Mr. Good Samaritan initiated physical force, then no matter how much of a dick Jeremy Dickface was, the prosecution is going to have problem....
Much more likely, so yeah, let's not hastily draw conclusions based on the actual reports. They are simply too unreliable. MSM fake news and all that. Fucking Democrats always lie. Let's wait and see what Breitbart, The Daily Caller, Infowars et al. reveal first, shall we? At least they are objective and reliable. Benghazi. Pizzagate. Kenyan presidents, 148 murders organised by Killary Cunton...
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Tue May 30, 2017 10:17 pm

Since Forty Two's ability to use a search function seems to be impaired today for some reason:

"Portland MAX hero's last words: 'Tell everyone on this train I love them'"
Even with headphones on, Rachel Macy said, she heard a man shouting and spewing foul language as soon as he boarded the eastbound MAX Green Line train Friday night at Lloyd Center.

"He was just being really belligerent and loud,'' she said.

The man, since identified as Jeremy Joseph Christian, entered through doors on one side of the train, and stepped across the aisle to a pole by the doors on the opposite side of the train.

"He was screaming that he was a taxpayer, that colored people were ruining the city, and he had First Amendment rights,'' Macy said.

Then he made anti-Muslim slurs.

"I didn't want to look. I was too afraid. It felt really tense,'' said the 45-year-old Southeast Portland resident of Native American descent. "I'm a woman of color. I didn't want him to notice me.''

The seats on the train were all taken, and other passengers were standing but it hadn't reached the rush-hour crush yet as the train headed toward the Hollywood station around 4:30 p.m., she said.

Macy noticed a young man quickly brush past her seat, while talking on the phone. He looked nervous and was moving away from Christian. Something didn't feel right, she said. She'd later learn that was Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche, 23.

Rick Best, 53, stood closest to Christian. He was trying to calm Christian down, by letting him know he had heard him.

"He was repeating back what this guy was saying. Like, 'I know you're a taxpayer. But this is not OK, that he was scaring people,' '' recalled Macy, whose account provides the most detailed chronology of the chaos that ensued.

Christian didn't seem to respond; just kept shouting. "He was not hearing anybody, just talking louder,'' she said.

At one point, the train operator got on the loudspeaker, saying something like whoever is creating the disturbance needed to exit the train immediately, Macy said. The operator also threatened to call police.

Christian screamed out that he was getting off the train at the next stop, and that "if anyone (expletive) followed, they were going to die,'' Macy recalled.

Namkai-Meche turned back toward Christian and briskly walked over to him, and loudly implored him, "You need to get off this train. Please, get off this train.''

Passengers Best, Namkai-Mache and a third man, Micah David-Cole Fletcher, 21, were trying to deescalate the tense situation, intervene and get Christian off the train, she said. Macy said she didn't know where the two teenage girls who were the target of his racist rants were seated. She said it appeared as if the men who were stabbed "were trying to be a barrier'' between Christian and the girls.

Someone attempted to move Christian away from the girls he was verbally harassing with a slight push or shove. "Touch me again, or I'm going to kill you,'' Macy heard Christian respond.

Namkai-Meche was holding up his phone, Macy said. She wasn't sure if Namkai-Meche was trying to show Christian something on the phone or was recording the interaction.

Suddenly, Christian hit the phone away and stabbed Namkai-Meche in the neck, she said.
So yeah, apparently at least one of the people that Christian killed "initiated physical force," and I suppose there are people who will therefore claim that he was acting in self defense.

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed May 31, 2017 1:53 am

"He was screaming that he was a taxpayer, that colored people were ruining the city, and he had First Amendment rights,'' Macy said.
Poor, confused idiot.
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by pErvinalia » Wed May 31, 2017 1:54 am

What does the 3% stand for? 3% of a full quid? :ask:
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Wed May 31, 2017 8:49 am

It's supposed to be symbolic of their willingness to take up arms to fight for their ideals (primarily the ideal that they can possess guns). It refers to the claim that 3 percent of the population of the American colonies took up arms against the British in the American War of Independence.

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by Forty Two » Wed May 31, 2017 11:35 am

L'Emmerdeur wrote:Since Forty Two's ability to use a search function seems to be impaired today for some reason:

"Portland MAX hero's last words: 'Tell everyone on this train I love them'"
Even with headphones on, Rachel Macy said, she heard a man shouting and spewing foul language as soon as he boarded the eastbound MAX Green Line train Friday night at Lloyd Center.

"He was just being really belligerent and loud,'' she said.

The man, since identified as Jeremy Joseph Christian, entered through doors on one side of the train, and stepped across the aisle to a pole by the doors on the opposite side of the train.

"He was screaming that he was a taxpayer, that colored people were ruining the city, and he had First Amendment rights,'' Macy said.

Then he made anti-Muslim slurs.

"I didn't want to look. I was too afraid. It felt really tense,'' said the 45-year-old Southeast Portland resident of Native American descent. "I'm a woman of color. I didn't want him to notice me.''

The seats on the train were all taken, and other passengers were standing but it hadn't reached the rush-hour crush yet as the train headed toward the Hollywood station around 4:30 p.m., she said.

Macy noticed a young man quickly brush past her seat, while talking on the phone. He looked nervous and was moving away from Christian. Something didn't feel right, she said. She'd later learn that was Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche, 23.

Rick Best, 53, stood closest to Christian. He was trying to calm Christian down, by letting him know he had heard him.

"He was repeating back what this guy was saying. Like, 'I know you're a taxpayer. But this is not OK, that he was scaring people,' '' recalled Macy, whose account provides the most detailed chronology of the chaos that ensued.

Christian didn't seem to respond; just kept shouting. "He was not hearing anybody, just talking louder,'' she said.

At one point, the train operator got on the loudspeaker, saying something like whoever is creating the disturbance needed to exit the train immediately, Macy said. The operator also threatened to call police.

Christian screamed out that he was getting off the train at the next stop, and that "if anyone (expletive) followed, they were going to die,'' Macy recalled.

Namkai-Meche turned back toward Christian and briskly walked over to him, and loudly implored him, "You need to get off this train. Please, get off this train.''

Passengers Best, Namkai-Mache and a third man, Micah David-Cole Fletcher, 21, were trying to deescalate the tense situation, intervene and get Christian off the train, she said. Macy said she didn't know where the two teenage girls who were the target of his racist rants were seated. She said it appeared as if the men who were stabbed "were trying to be a barrier'' between Christian and the girls.

Someone attempted to move Christian away from the girls he was verbally harassing with a slight push or shove. "Touch me again, or I'm going to kill you,'' Macy heard Christian respond.

Namkai-Meche was holding up his phone, Macy said. She wasn't sure if Namkai-Meche was trying to show Christian something on the phone or was recording the interaction.

Suddenly, Christian hit the phone away and stabbed Namkai-Meche in the neck, she said.
So yeah, apparently at least one of the people that Christian killed "initiated physical force," and I suppose there are people who will therefore claim that he was acting in self defense.
Based on the facts recited in the article, Jeremy Christian is a murderer.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed May 31, 2017 3:41 pm

Indeed, though I think a psychological report will be necessary to help determine the exact extent of his culpability (apparently he's bi-polar).
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by Forty Two » Wed May 31, 2017 3:43 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:Indeed, though I think a psychological report will be necessary to help determine the exact extent of his culpability (apparently he's bi-polar).
Well, he has a problem, one way or the other. The psychologists can sort it out, but as long as he can tell right from wrong and understand the nature of his actions, he will do time in prison, if not take a dirt nap. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by laklak » Wed May 31, 2017 4:50 pm

:this: Shame somebody didn't Stand Their Ground all over his sorry, murdering ass.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed May 31, 2017 5:32 pm

'dirt nap' :lol: That's a new one on me. :D
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by Hermit » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:44 am

Bloody idiots.




The view from one of the threesome:



Andrew Bolt is a turd, but those three attackers are much bigger, stinkier turds. Too stupid too to realise that their stunt is totally counter-productive.
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by JimC » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:05 am

:this:

I was thinking exactly the same thing, Hermit. I detest his politics, in the main, but it was a gutsy effort, and those leftist idiots have totally shot themselves in the foot. They have given him kudos, and the moral high ground - they were the cowardly attackers, he the "manly" defender.

Fuckwits.
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:00 am

Hermit wrote:Bloody idiots.




The view from one of the threesome:



Andrew Bolt is a turd, but those three attackers are much bigger, stinkier turds. Too stupid too to realise that their stunt is totally counter-productive.
It's become a meme now. Hell probably get targeted more. Got to be careful though. He's a big man. 6 foot 4 at least I think.
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