The Thread of BREXIT

[DaveDodo007]

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Do you think that the executive granting themselves powers to amend, repeal, and enact law without reference to Parliament is a good idea or not? This is not a partisan question - so why are you avoiding it with all this irrelevant twaddle - it's a question about what you think is the proper scope of executive power.

I'm no fan of the lords and we should get rid but one thing at a time eh.

First, that's a complete non-sequitor. Second, I'm no fan of our appointed second chamber but with a executive necessarily holding the majority in the Commons the Lords offer the only possible barrier to these so-called Henry VIII clauses - even though the Commons can, by majority vote, overturn any amendment the Lords might add to the passage of the bill. Are we to assume that your view on whether it's OK for the executive to grant themselves powers to amend, repeal, and enact law without reference to Parliament depends on whether you support the political perspective of the executive? My view on that is that the political perspective of the government of the day is irrelevant to the issue.

The Government sometimes adds this provision to a Bill to enable the Government to repeal or amend it after it has become an Act of Parliament. The provision enables primary legislation to be amended or repealed by subordinate legislation with or without further parliamentary scrutiny.

Such provisions are known as Henry VIII clauses, so named from the Statute of Proclamations 1539 which gave King Henry VIII power to legislate by proclamation.

http://www.parliament.uk/site-informati ... i-clauses/

To be clear, the government intends to integrate all existing EU legislation onto the British statue and then set about the business of sorting all that out. In the circumstances and in itself I don't think this is a bad idea. However, the proposed powers will also allow ministers to enact law by replacing one law with another. Now that may involve as little as changing the title and swapping all reference to the European Court of Justice with references to the UK Supreme Court. But without the oversight of Parliament they could also replace wholesale a piece of former EU legislation with something 'better' that they've come up with themselves. This is a bad idea. When the executive are not just in control of the legislature, but have the powers of a primary legislative body, bad things happen - laws are enacted for partisan reasons, and in extremis laws are enacted for the direct benefit of executive members and their friends.

I have to be honest here I am conflicted, in one sense democracy is all. Thought on another level I would like a second chamber full of scientist and philosophers and ordinary civilians. Who are allowed to discuss issues free from being silenced by the current zeitgeist. The House of Lords is not it since they are appointed by politicians, therefore they need to go. Though I have no answer how an alternative will be achieved.

[Brian Peacock]

I wonder if you'd be quite so blasé about these Henry VIII clauses if a Labour government were in charge? If it's OK for the executive to grant itself powers to create law without reference to the legislature then I guess you'd be OK with any and every government being able to do the same, regardless of political hue?

As for second chambers - this is why we need them, to hold the majority party in the Commons to account and mitigate the possible adverse effects of a legislative free hand.. On one hand the current government have railed against the Lords as 'enemies of democracy' over amendments to recent benefits and Brexit legislation, amendments which were subsequently thrown out, while on the other hand they've nominated a huge number of extra Lords which will soon see the benches swell to in excess of 900.

Lords reform has been on the agenda since 1918, but no British government has had the guts to change a system which benefits them when in power for one that might limit them when in power - as a proper, modern, fit-for-purpose second chamber should be able to. Basically, it suits all established parties to keep fudging the question of Lords reform.

[DaveDodo007]

Theresa May given stark warning about leaving customs union

Cabinet ministers have been given detailed warnings that the UK pulling out of the EU customs union could lead to a 4.5% fall in GDP by 2030 and the clogging up of trade through Britain’s ports.

The predictions were contained in a paper circulated at a meeting of Theresa May’s special Brexit cabinet committee, which concluded that ministers were not yet prepared to decide whether the UK should withdraw from the EU’s free trade bloc.

The 4.5% cut is the average prediction made in three studies that were carried out before Britain’s EU referendum, in a move that could anger Brexit supporting MPs who believe that the old estimates are out of date.

The studies, by the Treasury, the thinktank NIESR and the Centre for Economic Performance and London School of Economics, predicted the effect on the British economy if the UK was to opt for a Norway-style model. That would involve remaining inside the single market but outside the customs union, within which countries set common external tariffs and so do not require customs checks.

More...

I know a drop in GDP of 4.5% doesn't sound like much, but to put it in perspective, this is on the assumption that the government will settle on a EU-lite association like Norway (which is not looking very likely at the moment but could happen), and that to cover that trade shortfall with the UK would have to increase trade with non-EU states by 37% just to stand still.

Give it a rest, do you honestly believe people who are living hand to month care about the GDP. Ho noes some rich wankers might suffer because of Brexit, fucking good and fuck them. The working class (them people in days gone by that the left and liberals used to care about before identity politics) are suffering because of the importing of people who will take their jobs and overwhelm the welfare state that used to help them. Lets also let globalist and corporations keep wages low by adding to the numbers who are applying for the same jobs. Jesus fucking Christ if nothing else shows you lefty/liberal cunts are scumbags of the highest order, the very fact you are the enemy of the poor and disenfranchised population shows you have no soul and deserve the day of the rope when it visits you. Cunting traitors.

[DaveDodo007]

I wonder if you'd be quite so blasé about these Henry VIII clauses if a Labour government were in charge? If it's OK for the executive to grant itself powers to create law without reference to the legislature then I guess you'd be OK with any and every government being able to do the same, regardless of political hue?

As for second chambers - this is why we need them, to hold the majority party in the Commons to account and mitigate the possible adverse effects of a legislative free hand.. On one hand the current government have railed against the Lords as 'enemies of democracy' over amendments to recent benefits and Brexit legislation, amendments which were subsequently thrown out, while on the other hand they've nominated a huge number of extra Lords which will soon see the benches swell to in excess of 900.

Lords reform has been on the agenda since 1918, but no British government has had the guts to change a system which benefits them when in power for one that might limit them when in power - as a proper, modern, fit-for-purpose second chamber should be able to. Basically, it suits all established parties to keep fudging the question of Lords reform.

As i have said such a chamber would be a double edge sword so I'm open to persuasion on the issue.

[pErvinalia]

The working class (them people in days gone by that the left and liberals used to care about before identity politics) are suffering because of the importing of people who will take their jobs and overwhelm the welfare state that used to help them.

I love this. You're so paranoid you can't even get your paranoid fantasies lined up with each other. So they are going to steal jobs AND increase the welfare bill? Tell us how that works, genius.

[Brian Peacock]

Theresa May given stark warning about leaving customs union

Cabinet ministers have been given detailed warnings that the UK pulling out of the EU customs union could lead to a 4.5% fall in GDP by 2030 and the clogging up of trade through Britain’s ports.

The predictions were contained in a paper circulated at a meeting of Theresa May’s special Brexit cabinet committee, which concluded that ministers were not yet prepared to decide whether the UK should withdraw from the EU’s free trade bloc.

The 4.5% cut is the average prediction made in three studies that were carried out before Britain’s EU referendum, in a move that could anger Brexit supporting MPs who believe that the old estimates are out of date.

The studies, by the Treasury, the thinktank NIESR and the Centre for Economic Performance and London School of Economics, predicted the effect on the British economy if the UK was to opt for a Norway-style model. That would involve remaining inside the single market but outside the customs union, within which countries set common external tariffs and so do not require customs checks.

More...

I know a drop in GDP of 4.5% doesn't sound like much, but to put it in perspective, this is on the assumption that the government will settle on a EU-lite association like Norway (which is not looking very likely at the moment but could happen), and that to cover that trade shortfall with the UK would have to increase trade with non-EU states by 37% just to stand still.

Give it a rest, do you honestly believe people who are living hand to month care about the GDP. Ho noes some rich wankers might suffer because of Brexit, fucking good and fuck them. The working class (them people in days gone by that the left and liberals used to care about before identity politics) are suffering because of the importing of people who will take their jobs and overwhelm the welfare state that used to help them. Lets also let globalist and corporations keep wages low by adding to the numbers who are applying for the same jobs. Jesus fucking Christ if nothing else shows you lefty/liberal cunts are scumbags of the highest order, the very fact you are the enemy of the poor and disenfranchised population shows you have no soul and deserve the day of the rope when it visits you. Cunting traitors.

I don't think the average Jo or Jenny think much about the consequences of a drop in GDP, but it still effects them all the same: a depressed economy means less tax revenues, fewer teachers, nurses, doctors, more pot holes, fewer buses, nobody to lift granny out of the bath, higher import prices, etc etc.

[Brian Peacock]

Your problem Mr Dodo is that you think Brexit is a partisan issue when in fact it's not. We'll all share the future Brexit brings whatever the consequences. Stirring rhetoric about sunny uplands is fine, but surely these things should be addressed rationally, on the basis of the evidence, not by appeals to emotion, appeals to a utopian vision of a purified Britain, or on the spurious grounds that it's got to be a good thing because the other lot don't like it much.

[pErvinalia]

Dodo doesn't do anything rationally.

[DaveDodo007]

The working class (them people in days gone by that the left and liberals used to care about before identity politics) are suffering because of the importing of people who will take their jobs and overwhelm the welfare state that used to help them.

I love this. You're so paranoid you can't even get your paranoid fantasies lined up with each other. So they are going to steal jobs AND increase the welfare bill? Tell us how that works, genius.

Well how about the fact that the NHS has to deal with tuberculosis on these shores (blast from the past), also aids which was normally not so prominent. We now have to have an inbred database (outside the royal family for once.) Also adding people with large families where only one member contributes to the N. i. extra tax will fuck up the welfare state in no short order. This is schoolboy economics so I have to ask were your ancestors taken to Botany Bay for stealing a brick to feed the family.

[DaveDodo007]

Your problem Mr Dodo is that you think Brexit is a partisan issue when in fact it's not. We'll all share the future Brexit brings whatever the consequences. Stirring rhetoric about sunny uplands is fine, but surely these things should be addressed rationally, on the basis of the evidence, not by appeals to emotion, appeals to a utopian vision of a purified Britain, or on the spurious grounds that it's got to be a good thing because the other lot don't like it much.

I don't even know were you are coming from with this assessment, things are going to get worse, I doubt anybody is saying anything different. Considering you are a lefty why are you surprised the some people have a value system not based on money. Customs and values and heritage might mean something to people, even gasp us ebil right wing people. Who would have thunked it. I wouldn't care if the UK was the poorest country on the planet as long as we get to value our heritage. I would rather visit a historical building or watch Shakespeare in the park then have anything to do with some multicultural event. So fuck the EU and fuck you lefty/liberals as you are all traitors and fuck off.

[pErvinalia]

The working class (them people in days gone by that the left and liberals used to care about before identity politics) are suffering because of the importing of people who will take their jobs and overwhelm the welfare state that used to help them.

I love this. You're so paranoid you can't even get your paranoid fantasies lined up with each other. So they are going to steal jobs AND increase the welfare bill? Tell us how that works, genius.

Well how about the fact that the NHS has to deal with tuberculosis on these shores (blast from the past), also aids which was normally not so prominent. We now have to have an inbred database (outside the royal family for once.) Also adding people with large families where only one member contributes to the N. i. extra tax will fuck up the welfare state in no short order. This is schoolboy economics so I have to ask were your ancestors taken to Botany Bay for stealing a brick to feed the family.

[pErvinalia]

I wouldn't care if the UK was the poorest country on the planet as long as we get to value our heritage.

And this, my friends, is why conservatism is retarded.

[Hermit]

I wouldn't care if the UK was the poorest country on the planet as long as we get to value our heritage.

And this, my friends, is why conservatism is retarded.

To me it's an indicator of Dodo's BOC when he wrote that.

[DaveDodo007]

I wouldn't care if the UK was the poorest country on the planet as long as we get to value our heritage.

And this, my friends, is why conservatism is retarded.

No, it just shows you up as a meaningless drone, only individuals are of any value.

[pErvinalia]

I wouldn't care if the UK was the poorest country on the planet as long as we get to value our heritage.

And this, my friends, is why conservatism is retarded.

To me it's an indicator of Dodo's BOC when he wrote that.

It's really not. This is actually how conservatives think. It's the real life case of cutting your nose off to spite your face. Seth does it all the time too. It really is a retarded ideology.