Islam - How Awful Is It?

[Forty Two]

This is again about having to argue against a strawman. The mainstream discussion on protection of religious minorities and fighting islamophobia is not intended to force people to feel respect about the religion or to prevent criticism or anything like that. Surely, there are individuals who take the discussion this far, but they are not the mainstream.

I disagree. Take M-103 for example, in Canada. The whole idea is to "quell" the "climate of hate and fear" etc. This is a desire to control the thoughts and opinions of the people. They want to stop people from bad-mouthing Islam. Ireland's blasphemy laws are another example. They want to control what people think and say. It's not always just about Islam. When given the chance, the Christians get in on it.

Another example is ethical veganism. Some people refrain from eating meat and using other animal products because they don't want to feel responsible for causing suffering in animals. That's a very valid notion.

It's a notion. Whether it's valid is open to debate.

The other day, I read an article about how there is the beginning of using industrial means to grow meat from animal cell cultures. Obviously, a majority of the vegan commentators on the article said that they felt this was a great idea, because it allows them to eat meat without having to worry about causing suffering to animals. However, one commentator did not agree and said that this would still harm animals, because the individual animals where the original cells had come from had not agreed to be used for such a purpose, so this industrial process is still part of the enslavement of animals by human beings and anyone who disagrees is not a real vegetarian.

42 would certainly run with this person's ideas, point out how stupid they are, proclaim that vegans generally want to prevent anyone from eating any meat, and so on, completely ignoring the moderate mainstream among vegans.

I would not remotely run with either person's ideas. I would, at most, say that there are many vegans who do want to prevent people from eating meat, and that is one of their goals, to get legislation that would prohibit meat eating. Many definitely want that. Not all, I'm sure, but a lot.

[Brian Peacock]

Sure, they are, but the notion that one has an obligation to "respect" other people or their rights is absurd.

Oh, the State must respect individual human rights, but individuals do not. Individuals have to obey the law. So, a leftist progressive SJW doesn't have to "respect" the rights of a white supremacist, but the leftist progressive SJW should be jailed for assaulting the white supremacist. Do you follow?

It's the idea that we have to "respect" Islam or "respect" religion. No. I claim the right to treat religion, any religion, with ridicule and contempt, mockery, and revulsion. Respect? No. I don't have to.

If what you mean by "respect" is that I can't punch them or pull fire alarms to stop their worship sessions, etc., then sure, I agree with that.

Oh boo-hoo somebody did a bad thing once, therefore I don't have to respect people's human rights. Is equivocation the only thing you've got to bring to the table here? You know exactly what 'respect' means in the context of human rights don't you? Do you think people shouldn't respect your right to not be sold into slavery, to not be imprisoned without trial, to not be subjected to cruel or unusual punishments by the state, to not worship a deity of your choice, or none, or to not be discriminated against on the basis of your gender, ethnicity, politics, or tastes in music? Which of these rights should be respected and which of them shouldn't, and for whom, and for why?

[Forty Two]

Sure, they are, but the notion that one has an obligation to "respect" other people or their rights is absurd.

Oh, the State must respect individual human rights, but individuals do not. Individuals have to obey the law. So, a leftist progressive SJW doesn't have to "respect" the rights of a white supremacist, but the leftist progressive SJW should be jailed for assaulting the white supremacist. Do you follow?

It's the idea that we have to "respect" Islam or "respect" religion. No. I claim the right to treat religion, any religion, with ridicule and contempt, mockery, and revulsion. Respect? No. I don't have to.

If what you mean by "respect" is that I can't punch them or pull fire alarms to stop their worship sessions, etc., then sure, I agree with that.

Oh boo-hoo somebody did a bad thing once, therefore I don't have to respect people's human rights.

Err... in what sense was I crying?
I'm not the one bleating about how other people have to "respect" me.

Is equivocation the only thing you've got to bring to the table here?

No. I've, not equivocated in the slightest.

You know exactly what 'respect' means in the context of human rights don't you?

Yes, "due regard for..."

Do you think people shouldn't respect your right to not be sold into slavery,

No, I think they simply have no right to sell me into slavery, and the law should be enforced. Whether they have due regard for my right is beside the point. Respect is in a person's head. Their compliance with the law is all that is required.

to not be imprisoned without trial, to not be subjected to cruel or unusual punishments by the state, to not worship a deity of your choice, or none, or to not be discriminated against on the basis of your gender, ethnicity, politics, or tastes in music? Which of these rights should be respected and which of them shouldn't, and for whom, and for why?

I don't care if anyone doesn't "respect" them. They just have to obey them. If you're using the word respect as a synonym for obedience then we agree. I agree that everyone should obey the law, including things like not punching white supremacists, not blowing airhorns at people when they're talking as an invited speaker, not commandeering a stage and taking a microphone, not pulling fire alarms...those kinds of things. They can scream and yell about how awful it is that the evil person has a platform and how he should not have a platform, and how the cops should be coming in and beating up those evil people. Go for it - declare a lack of respect (lack of due regard) for the person or his or her views. Just obey the law.

[NineBerry]

As far as I can read, "M-103" means the parliament states that islamophobia is a bad thing and that some committee in the parliament will talk about ideas how to reduce racism. Doesn't negatively affect anyone.

[Forty Two]

As far as I can read, "M-103" means the parliament states that islamophobia is a bad thing and that some committee in the parliament will talk about ideas how to reduce racism. Doesn't negatively affect anyone.

It doesn't even define what the bullshit term Islamophobia means. It's a precursor to legislation meant to shut down mean comments about islam.

[NineBerry]

See, that's what I mean when I say "strawman".

[Forty Two]

What strawman? A strawman is when you mischaracterize someone else's argument, then argue against that mischaracterized argument. I disagree with you. I haven't tried to tell you what your argument is.

[NineBerry]

And thereby again strawmaned my argument

[Sean Hayden]

What's needed is a department of hate, whose job it will be to develop and distribute objective hateful rhetoric on every subject, group, idea, religion etc. in existence. Failure to register an idea, a group, a club, a secret society, a religion, or anything at all with the Bureau of Hated Things will be a criminal offense. In this way nothing escapes being hated.

In time hatred will come to be seen as utterly boring, and ineffectual, something that must be done but hopefully not by me. Who could work there, really? -urgh

[laklak]

Can I be the Minister of Hated Things? I'm well suited for the position, as I am an equal opportunity hater. I hate pretty much everybody and everything. My personal philosophy can best be summed up as "All y'all can go fuck y'alls selves". I'm obnoxious, opinionated, officious, sanctimonious, petty-minded, and I piss off pretty much everyone I come into contact with. Plus I'll use my position in the most corrupt and hateful way possible.

[NineBerry]

You'll have to hate drinking alcohol, boating and BBQ as well. Can you do that?

[laklak]

I should have added "hypocritical" to my resume.

[Sean Hayden]

Can I be the Minister of Hated Things? I'm well suited for the position, as I am an equal opportunity hater. I hate pretty much everybody and everything. My personal philosophy can best be summed up as "All y'all can go fuck y'alls selves". I'm obnoxious, opinionated, officious, sanctimonious, petty-minded, and I piss off pretty much everyone I come into contact with. Plus I'll use my position in the most corrupt and hateful way possible.

[JimC]

Also applies to religious atheism

Seth, would you please stop hacking NineBerry's account?

Thank you.

[NineBerry]

Continue denying there is such a thing as religious atheism and I will post the news article about the German atheist who murdered a Christian girl because of hatred for her religion and then posted an atheist manifesto in which he quotes Richard Dawkins.