Islam - How Awful Is It?

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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:23 pm

NineBerry wrote:Also applies to religious atheism
Is that right, Seth?
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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:25 pm

NineBerry wrote:You must respect that people are free to follow this faith in the bounds of general law. And you must refrain from inciting hatred against persons based on their membership in a cultural group like the Muslim communities. Both restrictions are based on the Declaration of Human Rights.
That Marxist document? Merkins don't have any need for commie shit like that.
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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:40 pm

pErvin wrote:
NineBerry wrote:You must respect that people are free to follow this faith in the bounds of general law. And you must refrain from inciting hatred against persons based on their membership in a cultural group like the Muslim communities. Both restrictions are based on the Declaration of Human Rights.
That Marxist document? Merkins don't have any need for commie shit like that.
I'm not sure where anyone gets the notion that they are entitled to other people's respect. Muslims are free, under the law, to practice their religion. Nobody needs to respect that, because not everything that is lawful is deserving of respect. What is deserving of respect varies from person to person. Some religious people don't respect atheism. Big whoop.

"Must refrain from inciting hatred?" Absolutely not. I am free to hate, and free to express that I hate, a religion or set of religions, or all religion. The suggestion that I have to be gagged, while people practicing an ancient, obsolete cult have to be respected because they are free to follow their faith is absurd.

Also "refrain from inciting hatred" tells us nothing about what we can and cannot say. Is it "inciting hatred" to suggest that Islam is discrimintory in that it makes women worship in different places than men? Is it "inciting hatred" to say it contains a bunch of bad ideas? Is it inciting hatred to say that Allah-believers are deluded and follow a false Prophet? Is it inciting hatred to participate in "Draw Mohammed Day?" What about publishing cartoons in the Jyllands-Posten?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:48 pm

pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote: I reject the notion that we can say that some forms of Islam, the really really extreme kind ,are bad, but we have to say that Islam itself - run of the mill - Joe Six-Pack Islam - is o.k. and good. No. Islam itself is conceptually, foundationally bad because (a) it's not true or completely unsubstantiated by fact or evidence - it's fundamental claims are not true, or must be taken as true without proof or evidence, (b) it's moral claims are highly questionable, at best, and even in its moderate forms contains and advocates ideas which are not good moral guides.
I certainly agree with this. But my views on religion aren't limited to Islam. The same applies to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and probably a fuckton more religions that I am yet to know the full details of.
I'm not sure how that changes the analysis. You are as free to ridicule and criticize Christainity, Judaism, Hinduism and other religions, or all religions. It's pretty much been a given for the last century or two, or more that criticizing religions, ridiculing them, and such, is part of the freedom of thought and expression that humans have. It's basic Enlightenment thinking. These days, for the most part, the voices claiming some sort of right not to be offended or blasphemed against are Muslims.

I would certainly suggest that a person has the right to pick and choose which religions they like and don't like. If someone likes Islam, but hates Christianity, so be it. And, vice versa. We can argue about it. But, we don't have to "respect" the religions and refrain from saying bad things about them.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:01 pm

Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
NineBerry wrote:You must respect that people are free to follow this faith in the bounds of general law. And you must refrain from inciting hatred against persons based on their membership in a cultural group like the Muslim communities. Both restrictions are based on the Declaration of Human Rights.
That Marxist document? Merkins don't have any need for commie shit like that.
I'm not sure where anyone gets the notion that they are entitled to other people's respect. Muslims are free, under the law, to practice their religion. Nobody needs to respect that, because not everything that is lawful is deserving of respect. What is deserving of respect varies from person to person. Some religious people don't respect atheism. Big whoop.
I know I'm asking for trouble here, but re-read what he wrote. He is talking about respect for the concept of religious freedom. Not respecting any particular individual.
"Must refrain from inciting hatred?" Absolutely not. I am free to hate, and free to express that I hate, a religion or set of religions, or all religion. The suggestion that I have to be gagged, while people practicing an ancient, obsolete cult have to be respected because they are free to follow their faith is absurd.
And inciting hatred isn't the same as hating someone or thing.
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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:04 pm

Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote: I reject the notion that we can say that some forms of Islam, the really really extreme kind ,are bad, but we have to say that Islam itself - run of the mill - Joe Six-Pack Islam - is o.k. and good. No. Islam itself is conceptually, foundationally bad because (a) it's not true or completely unsubstantiated by fact or evidence - it's fundamental claims are not true, or must be taken as true without proof or evidence, (b) it's moral claims are highly questionable, at best, and even in its moderate forms contains and advocates ideas which are not good moral guides.
I certainly agree with this. But my views on religion aren't limited to Islam. The same applies to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and probably a fuckton more religions that I am yet to know the full details of.
I'm not sure how that changes the analysis.
Because you only mentioned Islam.
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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:13 pm

Forty Two wrote:I'm not sure where anyone gets the notion that they are entitled to other people's respect.
You don't have to respect the people, silly, you have to respect their rights - if you want your own rights respected that is.
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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:39 pm

pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
NineBerry wrote:You must respect that people are free to follow this faith in the bounds of general law. And you must refrain from inciting hatred against persons based on their membership in a cultural group like the Muslim communities. Both restrictions are based on the Declaration of Human Rights.
That Marxist document? Merkins don't have any need for commie shit like that.
I'm not sure where anyone gets the notion that they are entitled to other people's respect. Muslims are free, under the law, to practice their religion. Nobody needs to respect that, because not everything that is lawful is deserving of respect. What is deserving of respect varies from person to person. Some religious people don't respect atheism. Big whoop.
I know I'm asking for trouble here, but re-read what he wrote. He is talking about respect for the concept of religious freedom. Not respecting any particular individual.
It's not even a legal requirement to "respect" religious freedom. What if someone thinks there shouldn't be religious freedom. Some Muslim sects don't think there should be freedom of religion, except for their religion, and they can go about saying that and publishing their position on that. They don't need to "respect" freedom of religion. Likewise, nobody has to respect them, or their religion.

pErvin wrote:
"Must refrain from inciting hatred?" Absolutely not. I am free to hate, and free to express that I hate, a religion or set of religions, or all religion. The suggestion that I have to be gagged, while people practicing an ancient, obsolete cult have to be respected because they are free to follow their faith is absurd.
And inciting hatred isn't the same as hating someone or thing.
Very true. And, that's the difficulty with the "inciting hatred" standard. It doesn't tell us much about what is permitted or prohibited. Often, though, the term is interpreted expansively, and includes things like "There are too many Moroccans around here." Depending on who is uttering the sentence, and who is making the ruling, it may or may not be incitement of hatred.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:40 pm

pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote: I reject the notion that we can say that some forms of Islam, the really really extreme kind ,are bad, but we have to say that Islam itself - run of the mill - Joe Six-Pack Islam - is o.k. and good. No. Islam itself is conceptually, foundationally bad because (a) it's not true or completely unsubstantiated by fact or evidence - it's fundamental claims are not true, or must be taken as true without proof or evidence, (b) it's moral claims are highly questionable, at best, and even in its moderate forms contains and advocates ideas which are not good moral guides.
I certainly agree with this. But my views on religion aren't limited to Islam. The same applies to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and probably a fuckton more religions that I am yet to know the full details of.
I'm not sure how that changes the analysis.
Because you only mentioned Islam.
Right, but how does mentioning other religions "change" the analysis? Is something different when we don't mention other religions?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:43 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Forty Two wrote:I'm not sure where anyone gets the notion that they are entitled to other people's respect.
You don't have to respect the people, silly, you have to respect their rights - if you want your own rights respected that is.
You don't have to respect anything. If people did, the leftists who don't respect Milo Yiannopoulous' rights, or Charles Murray's rights, or Jordan Peterson's rights would be breaking that rule. The people who advocate punching white supremacists aren't respecting the rights of the white supremacists, are they?

People have to refrain from interfering with or assaulting other people - wrongfully pulling fire alarms, punching, that kind of thing. But, respect? Hardly.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:50 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Forty Two wrote:I'm not sure where anyone gets the notion that they are entitled to other people's respect.
You don't have to respect the people, silly, you have to respect their rights - if you want your own rights respected that is.
You don't have to respect anything. If people did, the leftists who don't respect Milo Yiannopoulous' rights, or Charles Murray's rights, or Jordan Peterson's rights would be breaking that rule. The people who advocate punching white supremacists aren't respecting the rights of the white supremacists, are they?

People have to refrain from interfering with or assaulting other people - wrongfully pulling fire alarms, punching, that kind of thing. But, respect? Hardly.
I don't know who you're railing against specifically, but human rights are rights for all humans. You won't catch me saying that they should be afforded or withheld according to who I dis/favour. Again, I'm afraid, you've resorted to the off-topic tirade in lieu of addressing the point. If you don't think everyone's humans rights should be respected then please let us know which rights should be withheld and which rights should be enforced, and for whom, and for why.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:58 pm

Sure, they are, but the notion that one has an obligation to "respect" other people or their rights is absurd.

Oh, the State must respect individual human rights, but individuals do not. Individuals have to obey the law. So, a leftist progressive SJW doesn't have to "respect" the rights of a white supremacist, but the leftist progressive SJW should be jailed for assaulting the white supremacist. Do you follow?

It's the idea that we have to "respect" Islam or "respect" religion. No. I claim the right to treat religion, any religion, with ridicule and contempt, mockery, and revulsion. Respect? No. I don't have to.

If what you mean by "respect" is that I can't punch them or pull fire alarms to stop their worship sessions, etc., then sure, I agree with that.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by NineBerry » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:02 pm

You have to respect other people's rights or else you are breaking the law. That's what the term "to respect" means when applied to a legal concept. It is not connected to how you are feeling, but it means that you do not overstep what you are allowed to do.

When for example someone says "Respect my privacy", this does not involve how you are feeling towards that person or how you are feeling towards the concept of privacy, it simply means "obey the rules regarding privacy that are established in our society".

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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:09 pm

NineBerry wrote:You have to respect other people's rights or else you are breaking the law.
Not at all. I might say, "fuck you, I don't respect you or your silly, false religion which is beneath contempt." That's hardly respectful.
NineBerry wrote: That's what the term "to respect" means when applied to a legal concept. It is not connected to how you are feeling, but it means that you do not overstep what you are allowed to do.
Well, o.k., I can grant that, if you're using "respect" as in - don't commit crimes against people - -sure. You get no more right to commit crimes against religious people as you do against anyone else. If that's "respect", then sure.

However, the general dictionary definition in this context is "respect: due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of others." - due regard. That seems to go beyond merely refraining from punching them, or otherwise breaking the law. As a caveat, though, when we include compliance with the law, we bootstrap in the laws of whatever jurisdiction we are talking about, which in some places include the obligation not to blaspheme or say mean things about a given religion. So, if that kind of law is included in the "not breaking the law" bit of your usage of the word "respect," then I have to circle back to my opposition to such laws, which I believe violate people's rights.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by NineBerry » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:13 pm

This is again about having to argue against a strawman. The mainstream discussion on protection of religious minorities and fighting islamophobia is not intended to force people to feel respect about the religion or to prevent criticism or anything like that. Surely, there are individuals who take the discussion this far, but they are not the mainstream.

Another example is ethical veganism. Some people refrain from eating meat and using other animal products because they don't want to feel responsible for causing suffering in animals. That's a very valid notion.

The other day, I read an article about how there is the beginning of using industrial means to grow meat from animal cell cultures. Obviously, a majority of the vegan commentators on the article said that they felt this was a great idea, because it allows them to eat meat without having to worry about causing suffering to animals. However, one commentator did not agree and said that this would still harm animals, because the individual animals where the original cells had come from had not agreed to be used for such a purpose, so this industrial process is still part of the enslavement of animals by human beings and anyone who disagrees is not a real vegetarian.

42 would certainly run with this person's ideas, point out how stupid they are, proclaim that vegans generally want to prevent anyone from eating any meat, and so on, completely ignoring the moderate mainstream among vegans.

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