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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:24 am

JimC wrote:Well, if all they are doing is making sure that any course containing "sexual assault, violence, domestic abuse, child abuse, eating disorders, self-harm, suicide, pornography, abortion, kidnapping, hate speech, animal cruelty and animal deaths including abattoirs" has a warning attached, then people can ignore the warning if they choose, or take another course if they are feeling a little fragile...
Of course, that is not all they are doing, and even that quote does more than you think. A nice list of meanies there -- all seem so reasonable, until one gets into the details. Violence, eh? Really? All Quiet on the Western Front, Frankenstein, Count of Monte Cristo -- "trigger warning." Sexual Assault -- "Dangerous Liaisons" - trigger warning. But the big one here is "hate speech" - this will mean any class involving politics will have trigger warnings, if there is to be any discussion of anything remotely thought by Progressive leftists as "right wing." They say everything is hate speech. Supporting a right wing candidate like Trump is hate speech.

Of course people can ignore the warning if they choose, but that's not the point. The point is to label book or a class as improper and then get rid of it. They will report professors for discussing the material in class, and claim to be harassed by it. The idea of avoiding it will be called blaming the victim, and they will say that they need the course or courses for graduation and it's unfair to require women to endure books about sexual assault in order to take a class, or blacks to hear the word "nigger." So, classic works of literature like Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter and Twain's Huckleberry Finn will be attacked, and eventually it will be easier just to ban them. The Right wing theocrat types have been trying to do that for decades anyway, so the only resistance will be muted "hey, what the..."" from the great, silent, apathetic majority who say very little.
JimC wrote: The list at the end seems to be a bit more bizarre, but again, as long as none of the material is censored, and it's only about a warning about content, then it's no big deal, IMO...
That's not all it's about.

One, they are a misuse of a psychological/psychiatric concept. A trigger is something that sets off a PTSD episode. It's not supposed to mean something that bugs you or upsets you. PTSD is not something that ought to be self-diagnosed. If you have PTSD, you need a psychologist or psychiatrist. Also, it is not part of a "trigger" that a victim of war, for example, is "triggered" by books and movies and games involving war. A "trigger" is generally a smell, an individual sound like a certain kind of bang in certain context, or things like that. War veterans with PTSD are not "triggered" by literature involving war.

A trigger is no supposed to be something that offends one, troubles one, or angers one; it is something that causes an extreme involuntary reaction in which the individual re-experiences past trauma. And, in the context of a university, the few people that would have an "extreme involuntary reaction" to reading literature, or discussing opposing political views, have a serious psychological problem, and need to be seeing a doctor. They would then come to the professor with their diagnosed problem and work it out. A "trigger warning" is irrelevant, because it cannot be anticipate what, exactly, would trigger a person. It might be that a person was seriously harmed in a library, and so the smell of libraries "triggers" them. That can't be made a warning because it is hyper specific to a person. Saying "this book is about assault" doesn't help that person, because almost never does mere discussion of "assault" trigger a person who has been assaulted. It's typically a feeling, or an atmosphere or a something connected to the event itself.

The ONLY way they are relevant to general college life is if they are not used just for "extreme involuntary reactions" but actually used to allow students to avoid materials they find offensive or upsetting. And, that is precisely what they're not supposed to be used for.
Labeling a topic or theme is useless because of the way our brains work. The labels that we give trauma (assault, sexual abuse, rape) are not the primary source of triggers. Memories are, and not just memories, but very specific, insidious, and personally individualized details lodged in our brain at the time of the trauma encoded as memory. Details can include faces, places, sounds, smells, tastes, voices, body positions, time of day, or any other sensate qualities that were present during a traumatic incident.
The argument that trigger warnings help to protect those who have suffered trauma is false. Most people who have experienced trauma do not require preemptive protection.
http://www.stirjournal.com/2014/09/15/t ... dont-work/

Skeptics should oppose them, because they have not been shown to work for their intended purpose.

Also the evening news has more of the listed "triggering" material in an hour than in a semester at college. Rape, murder, kidnapping, right wing politics, Nazis, Commies, you name it - antiabortion, pro-abortion, violence...all on TV on any morning or evening. Should the news contain trigger warnings. What about the news on college televisions - should they set up a special system so that the television in the common area of a dormitory cannot have allegedly triggering material on it or must contain a warning?

Make no mistake - trigger warnings are political, not protection. They are out there to relegate views in a political science class, for example, to the side or to get them "no platformed" in the university setting. They are out to get books removed - to "decolonialize" literature and philosophy and such. The violence they talk about will include colonialism, which will be deemed triggering to native peoples. That sort of thing.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:29 am

Hermit wrote:If it was up to me to present a course I'd put up the following sign:

Trigger warning: No matter what issue or topic may trigger emotional distress, the possibility of it being encountered here cannot be excluded.
That wouldn't fly, and the concept of trigger warnings requires professors to do detailed syllabus reviews and review all materials used in the course and include trigger warnings from a list of warnings and specifically designate them accordingly. It's designed to put professors at risk if someone is triggered, and so the decision point for a professor would be: do I include The Handmaid's Tale in my course, or do I leave it out and pick something without rape in it. The easy, safe, way to not get called before a "Diversity Response Team" or asked to justify one's trigger warning decisions to the administration, is to just leave it out of the course altogether.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:32 am

NineBerry wrote:"May contain nuts"
Yes, which makes sense because nuts cause allergies to a significant set of persons. However, "contains hate speech" does not prevent any established condition. It might prevent someone from reading something one doesn't want to read, or which is upsetting, but that's not what trigger warnings are supposed to do.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Hermit » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:40 am

Forty Two wrote:
Hermit wrote:If it was up to me to present a course I'd put up the following sign:

Trigger warning: No matter what issue or topic may trigger emotional distress, the possibility of it being encountered here cannot be excluded.
That wouldn't fly, and the concept of trigger warnings requires professors to do detailed syllabus reviews and review all materials used in the course and include trigger warnings from a list of warnings and specifically designate them accordingly.
That's all they get from me. In other words, they can lump it or leave it. If I ran a course I would not be told what to discuss or how to discuss it. My course would not be censored under the guise that it might trigger emotional distress in someone.

Dunno what the situation is in the USA, but I don't think there is a single Vice Chancellor in Australia who would fall for the trigger trick. It won't fly here.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:44 am

They'll fire you. Believe it. You will be told. That's what they're doing. That's part of the whole purpose of this movement. this is not a benign or altruistic effort.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Hermit » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:46 am

Forty Two wrote:They'll fire you. Believe it. You will be told. That's what they're doing.
Not here, mate. We have standards.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:33 pm

I hope you're right. Standards are changing. They are succeeding in the US, Canada and the UK.

In the US - "One teacher I know was recently asked by a student not to use the word “violate” in class—as in “Does this conduct violate the law?”—because the word was triggering. Some students have even suggested that rape law should not be taught because of its potential to cause distress."

And, classic mythology is triggering -- http://thedailybanter.com/2015/05/speci ... mythology/ Ovid's Metamorphosis is triggering because Persephone is kidnapped and raped by Hades, and Zeus, in the form of a swan, bestially rapes Leda. So, well, gotta trigger-warn that shit.

But, an even greater movement is the movement to "de-colonize" education. Learning the classics, already a rare thing in higher education, is wrong because it is xenophobic and western-centric. We ought not be reading so much of what white people wrote.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by JimC » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:22 pm

Well sure, if this stuff moves beyond simple content warning into any form of censorship, then it's just plain silly. But as Hermit said, it's not going to fly here (my youngest son is doing a Master's degree, and no such idiocy is visible to him).

Seems another example that US universities are "special"...
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:13 pm

JimC wrote:Well sure, if this stuff moves beyond simple content warning into any form of censorship, then it's just plain silly. But as Hermit said, it's not going to fly here (my youngest son is doing a Master's degree, and no such idiocy is visible to him).

Seems another example that US universities are "special"...
It's just that they're much farther "left" at the moment than in Oz, I guess. As you know, on college campuses, "right" in the United States would be left liberal in Oz. And "left" on college campuses in the US is rabid communist. But, give it a minute. You folks like to be farther left than the US. So, the pendulums will swing, and hit you mates in the nutsacks.

This conservative Ozzy seems to see the leftist campus stuff as uniquely American -- http://ozconservative.blogspot.com/2015 ... sions.html

I haven't seen any reports out of Oz yet. Oz may be like Nevill Shute's On the Beach when it comes to college campuses....

The Brits are getting on the bad wagon, though -- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -math.html Goldsmith's University is all over it. Oxford is getting ramped up... https://heatst.com/world/oxford-student ... gressions/

Just keep using the word "cunt" so casually, mates, and you'll be next...they're coming...
Image
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:17 pm

JimC wrote:Well sure, if this stuff moves beyond simple content warning into any form of censorship, then it's just plain silly. But as Hermit said, it's not going to fly here (my youngest son is doing a Master's degree, and no such idiocy is visible to him).

Seems another example that US universities are "special"...
The thing is, it's can't be "just a simple content warning." They aren't looking to warn people that a book is rated R or PG or PG-13, or whatever. They're not just saying that people are doing some raping in the Handmaid's Tale. It's never just that. That minimal thing is not even their stated goal. They ultimately want to decolonize the curricula.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by JimC » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:41 pm

Forty Two wrote:
JimC wrote:Well sure, if this stuff moves beyond simple content warning into any form of censorship, then it's just plain silly. But as Hermit said, it's not going to fly here (my youngest son is doing a Master's degree, and no such idiocy is visible to him).

Seems another example that US universities are "special"...
It's just that they're much farther "left" at the moment than in Oz, I guess. As you know, on college campuses, "right" in the United States would be left liberal in Oz. And "left" on college campuses in the US is rabid communist. But, give it a minute. You folks like to be farther left than the US. So, the pendulums will swing, and hit you mates in the nutsacks.
It's not really a matter of traditional "left", it's a matter of excessive political correctness. It has some overlap with left as in socialism, but only some...
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:41 pm

Whatever you need to tell yourself. But they are all leftists over here. It's a leftist movement. Beware.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by JimC » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:28 am

We certainly have them to an extent, but the more absurd of their propositions tend to be treated with scornful laughter, not least from the old left of the union movement...
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:27 am

Forty Two wrote:
JimC wrote:Well sure, if this stuff moves beyond simple content warning into any form of censorship, then it's just plain silly. But as Hermit said, it's not going to fly here (my youngest son is doing a Master's degree, and no such idiocy is visible to him).

Seems another example that US universities are "special"...
It's just that they're much farther "left" at the moment than in Oz, I guess. As you know, on college campuses, "right" in the United States would be left liberal in Oz. And "left" on college campuses in the US is rabid communist. But, give it a minute. You folks like to be farther left than the US. So, the pendulums will swing, and hit you mates in the nutsacks.
There's probably some truth to this. There's enough university educated activists that I know who go on with this sort of shit. There's clearly the potential for it to grow here.
Just keep using the word "cunt" so casually, mates, and you'll be next...they're coming...
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I dropped the C-word on a facebook post from SBS news (higher proportion of these regressive left people) regarding Pauline Hanson the other day. I was expecting a telling off. It never came. Maybe even the sjw's make an exception for such a racist cunt as her.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:29 am

Forty Two wrote:
JimC wrote:Well sure, if this stuff moves beyond simple content warning into any form of censorship, then it's just plain silly. But as Hermit said, it's not going to fly here (my youngest son is doing a Master's degree, and no such idiocy is visible to him).

Seems another example that US universities are "special"...
The thing is, it's can't be "just a simple content warning." They aren't looking to warn people that a book is rated R or PG or PG-13, or whatever. They're not just saying that people are doing some raping in the Handmaid's Tale. It's never just that. That minimal thing is not even their stated goal. They ultimately want to decolonize the curricula.
That's a nice opinion. Do you have any proof that the university in Australia that I quoted is doing it for these censorious reasons?
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