Leftist Riot Du Jour - UC Berkeley

[pErvinalia]

Libertarianism is based on 16th century French and 17th century British thinkers, and predates the existence of the US. See La Boetie, Locke, etc. Libertarians are not anarchists, as libertarians acknowledge a legitimate role for elected government. You, as usual, have no idea what you're talking about.

Libertarianism IS anarchism (essentially). Except in the US where libertarianism is a right-wing ideology and is largely synonymous with anarcho-capitalism.

[Forty Two]

given how totalitariansim is shown as a lefty tendency, after having been implemented by thoth the fascists and the Nazis, I'm not sure how reliable this graph is.

Either that or you really don't understand leftist ideologies, and you are under the common mistaken impression that communism is just a really nice and altruistic version of social democracy.

totalitarianism is not an ideology, it's a feature of both far right and far left authoritarian regimes.

I didn't say it was. There are leftist ideologies which are authoritarian, and even totalitarian.

[Svartalf]

it's a feature that applies across the board, regardless of right and left, you could find totalitariansim in far right, fundamentalist states, like ones dominated by religion...

[Forty Two]

Libertarianism is based on 16th century French and 17th century British thinkers, and predates the existence of the US. See La Boetie, Locke, etc. Libertarians are not anarchists, as libertarians acknowledge a legitimate role for elected government. You, as usual, have no idea what you're talking about.

Libertarianism IS anarchism (essentially).

You're wrong.

Except in the US where libertarianism is a right-wing ideology and is largely synonymous with anarcho-capitalism.

You're wrong again.

Anarchism is a political philosophy which advocates a stateless society - it's usually considered a radical left-wing ideology.
Libertarianism is a political philosophy that upholds liberty of the individual as its primary focus and principal objective, but is not generally involving a stateless society.
Anarcho-capitalism is a political philosophy that advocates the elimination of the state (i.e. a stateless society) in favor of individual sovereignty, private property, and open markets. It's considered right wing, because of its adherence to the concept of private property and capitalism.
Anarcho-Communism is a political philosophy that advocates the elimination of the state and the elimination of private property and wage labour. That's why anarcho-communism is considered left wing.

Anarcho-capitalism is not the same thing as libertarianism, not even in the bad United States, where everything apparently has incorrect definitions.

Stop talking about stuff of which you don't even know the basics. You obviously don't understand what you're talking about.

[Forty Two]

it's a feature that applies across the board, regardless of right and left, you could find totalitariansim in far right, fundamentalist states, like ones dominated by religion...

Indeed, who said they couldn't? Just because there are authoritarian and totalitarian left doesn't mean mean that all authoritarians and totalitarians are left. Fascists are on the right, and they are very authoritarian and even totalitarian.

[pErvinalia]

given how totalitariansim is shown as a lefty tendency, after having been implemented by thoth the fascists and the Nazis, I'm not sure how reliable this graph is.

Either that or you really don't understand leftist ideologies, and you are under the common mistaken impression that communism is just a really nice and altruistic version of social democracy.

totalitarianism is not an ideology, it's a feature of both far right and far left authoritarian regimes.

I didn't say it was.

But the graph you posted says it's a left ideology. That's the point.

[pErvinalia]

Libertarianism is based on 16th century French and 17th century British thinkers, and predates the existence of the US. See La Boetie, Locke, etc. Libertarians are not anarchists, as libertarians acknowledge a legitimate role for elected government. You, as usual, have no idea what you're talking about.

Libertarianism IS anarchism (essentially).

You're wrong.

Back under your rock. -

Anarchism is a libertarian political philosophy...

Since the 1890s, and beginning in France,[39] the term libertarianism has often been used as a synonym for anarchism[40] and was used almost exclusively in this sense until the 1950s in the United States;[41] its use as a synonym is still common outside the United States.[42]

Except in the US where libertarianism is a right-wing ideology and is largely synonymous with anarcho-capitalism.

You're wrong again.

Back under your rock -

Since the 1890s, and beginning in France,[39] the term libertarianism has often been used as a synonym for anarchism[40] and was used almost exclusively in this sense until the 1950s in the United States;[41] its use as a synonym is still common outside the United States.[42]

Stop talking about stuff of which you don't even know the basics. You obviously don't understand what you're talking about.

Back under your rock. Your graph is nonsense -

Anarchism is usually considered a radical left-wing ideology,[20][21] and much of anarchist economics and anarchist legal philosophy reflects anti-authoritarian interpretations of communism, collectivism, syndicalism, mutualism, or participatory economics.[22]

[Forty Two]

Sure, the graphs not perfect but it makes the point that leftist ideologies can be authoritarian and totalitarian.

Totalitarianism is a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state. So, I agree that there are right wing and left wing totalitarian governments. To that extent, the graph is not completely accurate. That doesn't change the fact that the chart does show roughly where various ideologies fall on the spectrum.

[pErvinalia]

it's a feature that applies across the board, regardless of right and left, you could find totalitariansim in far right, fundamentalist states, like ones dominated by religion...

Indeed, who said they couldn't?

Your own fucking graph, dipshit!

[pErvinalia]

Sure, the graphs not perfect but it makes the point that leftist ideologies can be authoritarian and totalitarian.

No, the point it is making is that totalitarianism is a feature only of the left. That's simply bullshit. That's what Svarty is trying to tell you.

That doesn't change the fact that the chart does show roughly where various ideologies fall on the spectrum.

It absolutely repudiates that chart. It's got totalitarianism wrong. Anarchism wrong. And communism (the political ideology) wrong. And I haven't even looked at most of the rest in that chart.

[Forty Two]

Libertarianism is based on 16th century French and 17th century British thinkers, and predates the existence of the US. See La Boetie, Locke, etc. Libertarians are not anarchists, as libertarians acknowledge a legitimate role for elected government. You, as usual, have no idea what you're talking about.

Libertarianism IS anarchism (essentially).

You're wrong.

Back under your rock. -

Anarchism is a libertarian political philosophy...

From the same wiki - "These are often described as stateless societies," - as I said, the key feature of anarchism is that the society is stateless. Libertarianism does not generally involve stateless societies, as libertarians generally allow a role of the state to protect the rights of individuals against things like force or fraud.

From the same wiki - "Anarchism holds the state to be undesirable, unnecessary, and harmful."

From Wiki - "Libertarianism (Latin: liber, "free") is a collection of political philosophies that uphold liberty as a core principle.[1] Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and freedom of choice, emphasizing political freedom, voluntary association, and the importance of individual judgment." Note that one of the key features here is not the elimination of the state. There is a subset of libertarianism that is anarcho-libertarian, and some libertarians are anarcho-capitalists. However, libertarianism and anarchism are not the same things.

Libertarians share a skepticism of authority and state power. However, they diverge on the scope of their opposition to existing political and economic systems. Various schools of libertarian thought offer a range of views regarding the legitimate functions of state and private power, often calling to restrict or to dissolve coercive social institutions.

Some libertarians advocate laissez-faire capitalism and strong private property rights,[4] such as in land, infrastructure, and natural resources. Others, notably libertarian socialists,[5] seek to abolish capitalism and private ownership of the means of production in favor of their common or cooperative ownership and management, viewing private property as a barrier to freedom and liberty.[6][7][8][9] An additional line of division is between minarchists and anarchists. While minarchists think that a minimal centralized government is necessary, anarchists and anarcho-capitalists propose to completely eliminate the state

Since the 1890s, and beginning in France,[39] the term libertarianism has often been used as a synonym for anarchism[40] and was used almost exclusively in this sense until the 1950s in the United States;[41] its use as a synonym is still common outside the United States.[42]

Except in the US where libertarianism is a right-wing ideology and is largely synonymous with anarcho-capitalism.

You're wrong again.

Back under your rock -

Since the 1890s, and beginning in France,[39] the term libertarianism has often been used as a synonym for anarchism[40] and was used almost exclusively in this sense until the 1950s in the United States;[41] its use as a synonym is still common outside the United States.[42]

You're quite dishonest, pErvin. The quote in the wikipedia article on Anarchy is as follows:

Since the 1890s, the term libertarianism has been used as a synonym for anarchism[39][40] and was used almost exclusively in this sense until the 1950s in the United States. At this time, classical liberals in the United States began to describe themselves as libertarians, and it has since become necessary to distinguish their individualist and capitalist philosophy from socialist anarchism. Thus, the former is often referred to as right-wing libertarianism, or simply right-libertarianism, whereas the latter is described by the terms libertarian socialism, socialist libertarianism, left-libertarianism, and left-anarchism.[41][42] Right-libertarians are divided into minarchists and anarcho-capitalists or voluntarists. Outside the English-speaking world, libertarianism generally retains its association with left-wing anarchism.[43]

In the English speaking world, they are not synonyms. It was used synonymously before the 1950s, but since then there has been a distinction between the those ideologies involving individualist and capitalist philosophies and socialist anarchism.

Your quote has a footnote that supposedly supports the contention that outside of the US libertarianism and anarchism are synonyms. Scanning the list, a citation to Canadian writer George Woodcock is included, which asserts that he uses the terms libertarian and anarchism interchangeably; however, he does not do that. The book is available free if you google it. He uses both terms, but anarchism is a subset of libertarian thought. I.e. he views anarchism as libertarian in nature, but not all libertarians are anarchists. The citation in your wiki quote just does not stand for the proposition you assert. Also, the cite referencing Colin Ward's book on Anarchy, page 62, is incorrect because Ward also does not use the terms interchangeably. He acknowledges only that in the 1890s, anarchists used the terms interchangeably. He recognized that in the mid-20th century that was no longer the case, so the distinction had to be recognized..

You're wrong.

[pErvinalia]

Yes yes, black is white.

[Forty Two]

Oh fuck off. You're wrong. The English speaking world does not use the terms interchangeably, as synonyms. They don't in the US, they don't in Canada, and they don't in the UK. If you do in Oz, then that's your problem. But, I'd love for you to provide proof of common English usage of the terms libertarianism as synonymous with anarchism. They are not synonyms. They don't mean the same thing, and I've explained why. Everyone understands it, and nobody here is going to post any modern writing where the words are used as synonyms. There are not news reports in English where the rioting anarchists are called rioting libertarians, and the black bloc anarchists breaking windows at G-20 events are not referred to sometimes as anti-globalist libertarians rioting against the G-20. For fuck's sake, man...

[pErvinalia]

You really are clueless. Your own wiki link backs up my point.

Although the word libertarian continues to be widely used to refer to socialists internationally, its meaning in the United States has deviated from its political origins.[24][25]

Libertarianism first politically referred to anarchism. In the 50's in the US it was used to describe socially liberal but economically conservative ideas. But the rest of the world understands where it actually came from. I know the people of the US think that there is nothing outside of the borders of their country. But there is, and libertarianism didn't start in the 1950's. And anarchism is most definitely a left ideology, one that politically differentiated from marxism in the 1860's or thereabouts. For the nth time, your graph is wrong on a number of accounts and can be ignored. Much like you, actually..

[Forty Two]

One, I have not argued that anarchism is most definitely a left ideology, except that anarchist-capitalism is considered a rightist ideology BECAUSE OF ITS ADHERENCE TO THE CONCEPT OF PRIVATE PROPERTY. There is such a thing as anarcho-capitalism, and it is most definitely anarchist and it is most definitely not synonymous with libertarianism.

You're mixing up etymology with meaning - we all know where the words came from (etymology), but that does not mean they mean the same thing today as they did 150 years ago. Libertarianism and anarchism simply are not synonyms in common English usage today. Naturally, both words have historical etymologies, but that does not mean that today non-American English speaking usage is to use them as synonyms. They aren't used as such.

Give me a modern example in common English usage of the words being used interchangeably - or of libertarian being used to describe an anarchist. Let's see it.