Do we really need democracy?

User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
Posts: 39974
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
About me: Ablate me:
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Do we really need democracy?

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:46 pm

theguardian.com wrote:... The broad consensus is that everyone is sick of politicians. On the one hand, eminences grises such as Gus O’Donnell (chosen randomly as the most recent example) connect living standards to the disenchantment. The more stagnant people’s wages, the worse their conditions, the higher their rents, the more disillusioned with mainstream politics they’re likely to be. The counter-argument is that MPs are simply bad people: witness the expenses scandal, or Iain Duncan Smith. Far from giving a clear map of the terrain, these perspectives are just features of it: bogs and pitfalls.

The real crisis of faith is not in politicians but in democracy, and this is common across the OECD countries. The World Economic Forum details its extent: from Sweden to New Zealand, Britain to the US, the percentage of people who say that it is “essential” to live in a democracy has dropped from around 70% among those born in the 1930s, to around 25% for those born in the 1980s.

Part of this is sheer amnesia. People born in the 1930s remember what the alternatives to democracy look like; it is ardently to be hoped that the young can be reminded by argument, and don’t have to see first-hand the devastation of authoritarianism before they believe it. The young are disillusioned, according to the Global Shapers survey, by bureaucracy, insincerity, lack of action and accountability, and a sense that the government doesn’t understand them.

That last point dovetails with the perception of insincerity. There is a problem with selection, a sense that politics is a career for insiders, people heavily invested in the status quo, who see their job as protecting it from the demands of the people. In 2012 a team of Italian physicists, economists and political scientists modelled a parliament in which some members had been chosen at random, like juries, and found the resultant system to be both more efficient and better at pursuing broad social welfare – as well as more diverse and thus more representative...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... a-politics
www.nytimes.com wrote:... Across numerous countries, including Australia, Britain, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Sweden and the United States, the percentage of people who say it is “essential” to live in a democracy has plummeted, and it is especially low among younger generations.

...

Support for autocratic alternatives is rising, too. Drawing on data from the European and World Values Surveys, the researchers found that the share of Americans who say that army rule would be a “good” or “very good” thing had risen to 1 in 6 in 2014, compared with 1 in 16 in 1995.

That trend is particularly strong among young people. For instance, in a previously published paper, the researchers calculated that 43 percent of older Americans believed it was illegitimate for the military to take over if the government were incompetent or failing to do its job, but only 19 percent of millennials agreed. The same generational divide showed up in Europe, where 53 percent of older people thought a military takeover would be illegitimate, while only 36 percent of millennials agreed...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/world ... .html?_r=2
According to Winston Churchill the best argument against democracy was to be found in a five-minute conversation with the average voter, but then again he also said that it was the least worse system available. If we think democracy is good, both in principle and practice, then perhaps we need to contribute something a little more substantial than just our votes? If we are happy to leave the maintenance, development, reform, and/or running of democracy to other people is our non-participation just allowing the system to be run in the interests of those who do bother to participate?
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 41048
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: Do we really need democracy?

Post by Svartalf » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:01 pm

problem is that so called "representative democracy" is just blackface on the front of traditional oligarchy by the entitled classes... the so called "representatives" representing their own interests and those of the power structure that brought them to parliament rather than those of of their constituents... I've come to the conclusion that democracy can only be exercised by way of direct involvement in politics, which raises the old problem that only the leisured classes, and possibly those making a job out of politics, generally one and the same can exercise this right properly, the lower, unleisured classes, those who can't attend to their own interests being irremediably shafted in the process, being essentially at the mercy of the decisions and laws passed by "their betters".
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
Posts: 39974
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
About me: Ablate me:
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: Do we really need democracy?

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:31 pm

That is a bit of a paradox isn't it? But information technology can, perhaps, garner greater participation - with some encouragement at least.
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 41048
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: Do we really need democracy?

Post by Svartalf » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:36 pm

Up to now, I've been rather unimpressed by the results of applied IT to politics.
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
Jason
Destroyer of words
Posts: 17782
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:46 pm
Contact:

Re: Do we really need democracy?

Post by Jason » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:37 pm

I agree with Svartalf - representative democracy is a fail. If the government is so large you cannot participate in it directly then your interests will be increasingly frustrated the larger it gets - by necessity even faithful representatives cannot satisfy so many conflicting interests. I'm in favour of small government, which means small independent states, and direct participation in that government by the people it governs.

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 41048
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: Do we really need democracy?

Post by Svartalf » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:46 pm

Balkanisation is no real solution, that way lie local conflicts of interests and wars.
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
Jason
Destroyer of words
Posts: 17782
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:46 pm
Contact:

Re: Do we really need democracy?

Post by Jason » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:05 pm

True enough. I suppose there'd have to be an international organization like the UN in place to mediate disputes and keep the peace.

User avatar
laklak
Posts: 21022
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:07 pm
About me: My preferred pronoun is "Massah"
Location: Tannhauser Gate
Contact:

Re: Do we really need democracy?

Post by laklak » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:33 pm

no. A better solution would be to find one person to run things, someone like me.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 41048
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: Do we really need democracy?

Post by Svartalf » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:48 pm

You mean me.
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
Posts: 39974
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
About me: Ablate me:
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: Do we really need democracy?

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:49 pm

Śiva wrote:I agree with Svartalf - representative democracy is a fail. If the government is so large you cannot participate in it directly then your interests will be increasingly frustrated the larger it gets - by necessity even faithful representatives cannot satisfy so many conflicting interests. I'm in favour of small government, which means small independent states, and direct participation in that government by the people it governs.
In the UK this problem, of how does a representative democracy really represent, and whom, has recently been exposed to the notion of 'localism.' Localism is supposed to represent a devolution of power from the centre to the regions, and from regional hubs to their component areas. It hasn't really got anywhere, mostly because the people who operate democratic institutions, from the top all the way down the chain, are loathed to cede powers or responsibilities to others - even while those looking back up the chain are saying, "if only we could do things another way." So localism in the UK is little more than political PR, and which plays out in terms of regional institutions being held up as responsible for failings in the systems the central hub obliges them to operate: localism is all one-way traffic, and it's all going the wrong way.

i guess the question is, if 'representative democracy' is doomed to fail what kind of democracy is capable of replacing it?
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 41048
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: Do we really need democracy?

Post by Svartalf » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:53 pm

Democracy can't succeed if you expect all citizens to have a fair part in ruling.
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
Posts: 39974
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
About me: Ablate me:
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: Do we really need democracy?

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:54 pm

laklak wrote:no. A better solution would be to find one person to run things, someone like me.
I'd vote for you. :D
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 41048
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: Do we really need democracy?

Post by Svartalf » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:58 pm

only if we can trust him to be drunk most of the time and to leave things alone
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60770
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Do we really need democracy?

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:19 am

I think localisation and IT technologies are part of the solution. I've long advocated getting rid of State governments here and having local governments pick up a lot of the former's power.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
NineBerry
Tame Wolf
Posts: 9101
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:35 pm
Location: nSk
Contact:

Re: Do we really need democracy?

Post by NineBerry » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:27 am

Technology actually requires larger governments. Most of our dealings today are with people and companies from outside our local communities. Laws to regulate these dealings need to be made by globally acting governments.

Also, challenges of the future like dealing with climate change, space conquest, fighthing outbreaks of infections, dealing with the zombie apocalypse. You need centralised governments for that.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 40 guests