Election 2016 Thread

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Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Forty Two » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:35 pm

Tero wrote:"These conservatives seem to have forgotten that before Assange was revealing Clinton campaign emails, he was serially leaking stolen, classified national security information that has endangered the United States and its allies across the world.

In 2010, WikiLeaks dumped more than 76,000 unredacted, secret U.S. intelligence documents into the public domain, including the identities of at least 100 Afghans who were informing on the Taliban."
https://news.google.com/news/amp?caurl= ... pt0-232727
Wikileaks leaks information, yes, however, so far it has not been established that they are leaking "stolen" classified national security information, or stolen non-classified information.

Further,if they're not the one's "stealing" the information, but they are merely publishing the papers which were leaked or stolen by someone else, then it's no different than the New York Times publishing the Pentagon Papers.

In 1971, Daniel Ellsberg illegally released highly classified Pentagon Papers concerning US involvement in the Vietnam War. The Pentagon Papers had demonstrated, among other things, that the Lyndon Johnson Administration (Democrat) systematically lied, not only to the public but also to Congress. , The papers revealed that the U.S. had secretly enlarged the scale of the Vietnam War with the bombings of nearby Cambodia and Laos, coastal raids on North Vietnam, and Marine Corps attacks, none of which were reported in the mainstream media. This was back when the President ordering bombings of a country was considered a problem. LOL.

Ellsberg was initially charged with conspiracy and espionage etc., and the only reason the charges were dropped was that the Nixon Administration had poisoned the prosecution (not intentionally) by dispatching "The Plumbers" to go out and discredit Ellsberg (all part of the Watergate Scandal) and the prosecutors basically dropped the case because of Watergate.

But, the fact was, the Pentagon Papers were classified documents and were not declassified until 2011, and they were illegally released to the public (stolen) by Daniel Ellsberg, and delivered to a media publisher. The media publisher (New York Times) published the material and it was found in court that the New York Times had every right to publish them.

The same is true here -- perhaps the material was leaked improperly by someone in the Clinton camp or the government. We don't know. Perhaps access was illegally granted by someone in that kind of position. We don't know. Perhaps the Russians hacked it, grabbed the info and are leaking it to media outlets. We don't know. There has been some assertion that the Russians did it by "unnamed officials on condition of anonymity" but - nobody has proved anything.

In any case - nobody has suggested Wikileaks illegally leaked them. Nobody has suggested that Wikileaks broke in and stole them, or hacked in and stole them. And, if they did, they would need to use the Hague Convention and extradition law to bring Assange and others in Wikileaks to court on charges.

Whatever the case - the fact that the material is stolen has zero bearing on their truth or accuracy. The fact that they are stolen (if they are stolen) has zero bearing on whether the material is newsworthy or should be considered in assessing the ethics, morality and legality of the actions of the players involved.

Wikileaks was never "serially leaking" anything, by the way. Wikileaks isn't working for the US government. A "leak" is someone who, within the State Department, for example, gives out information or allows it to be accessed, which is classified. That's the one who is doing the leaking. Wikileaks can't possibly do that. At most, what Wikileaks is doing is "receiving leaked information" (if it was leaked) and "receiving hacked information" if it was hacked. Now, we know it's o.k. for a private person (or entity) to publish leaked and even stolen information, based on the example of the Pentagon Papers.

It is most certainly possible for Wikileaks to be acting properly, but someone else, who stole or hacked, or leaked, the information, to be guilty of a crime.

Remember, you and me, the New York Times, Wikileaks, etc., we are not required to keep the government's secrets. If we see Hillary's emails and they're marked classified, that's HER legal failure. That's HER breach of duty. That's HER breach of trust. If we go ahead and share that information with other people, we haven't done anything wrong. The government wants us to think that. But, there is no law which says that a private person cannot disclose "classified" information he receives (unless it is received under specific obligation to do so - like if you work for a government contractor and have signed non-disclosure policies and requirements). Private persons are not automatically covered by laws about classfied information.

Where people will fall into Espionage Act and such issues, like Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, without signing nondisclosures, is when they are acting for a foreign government. In that case, it was shown the Rosenbergs were working as agents for the Soviet Government. That hasn't even been alleged about Wikileaks. But, if it is alleged ever -- then, again, arrest the guy and prosecute him. It would start with an indictment in a US federal court, and efforts to extradite.

However, again, this can't be stressed enough. Even if he is arrested on espionage charges and convicted -- it has no bearing on the public interest value of the documents. It doesn't mean they aren't true. It doesn't mean they aren't fair game for us to read, now that they're out there. We don't have to consider them "fruit of the poisoned tree" and pretend they don't exist.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Tero » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:40 pm

These are punishable acts, whatever the route the info took to get to WikiLeaks:
In November 2010, WikiLeaks collaborated with major global media organisations to release U.S. State Department diplomatic "cables" in redacted format.
On 14 October 2016, CNN reported that "there is mounting evidence that the Russian government is supplying WikiLeaks with hacked emails pertaining to the US presidential election.
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/u-s- ... r-1.327911

despite the Internet, information is not free to all. Just posting an article behind a paywall breaks copyright law.

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Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Forty Two » Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:20 pm

Tero wrote:These are punishable acts, whatever the route the info took to get to WikiLeaks:
Of course they are -- depending on the acts, of course. If a government employee leaked the info, then THAT PERSON committed a crime. However, if that person shows the info to the New York Times who shows it to me on page 3 of their newspaper, I haven't committed a crime and neither has the Times.
Tero wrote:
In November 2010, WikiLeaks collaborated with major global media organisations to release U.S. State Department diplomatic "cables" in redacted format.
So? Like the Pentagon Papers.... just fine for WIkileaks and the global media organizations.
Tero wrote: On 14 October 2016, CNN reported that "there is mounting evidence that the Russian government is supplying WikiLeaks with hacked emails pertaining to the US presidential election.


Well, first of all, have you seen what that evidence is? I haven't. What I've seen are reports from media who say they talked to anonymous sources and there is no detail as to how they know. But, that's beside the point.

Let's take it as read that the Russian government is dead-on balls guilty. they did it. They had their hackers figure a way into the system and copied all the files. Then they shared it with Wikileaks. The criminal is the Russians who hacked -- espionage, theft, whatever -- but, just as the New York Times was not guilty of anything when Dan Ellsberg supplied them with the stolen Pentagon Papers, Wikileaks is not guilty for publishing a stack of papers that someone else stole.

Tero wrote:
despite the Internet, information is not free to all. Just posting an article behind a paywall breaks copyright law.
The argument is not that information is free to all. Hackers who hack into secure systems are guilty of a crime. What I'm saying is that people who didn't do the hacking, but publish information which was hacked by someone else, are not guilty of a crime.

That 2010 article you posted from Haaretz about charging Assange with Esionage for releasing the information illustrates my point They couldn't charge him. As the article said "Experts have said that it could be a difficult case, because of sensitivities regarding the First Amendment."

"Unlike Manning, charged with handing over a massive cache of secret State Department cables and military intelligence logs to WikiLeaks, Assange is not a US government employee obliged to withhold classified documents." http://www.alternet.org/rss/breaking_ne ... an_assange
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/u-s- ... r-1.327911
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:23 am

I see they tried to assassinate Mike Pence. Those bastards! :lay:
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Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Hermit » Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:11 am

Forty Two wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Hermit wrote:To create American jobs would involve Apple, Intel, General Motors among many other American corporations to source their products from factories located in the USA. Somehow I don't think he'll find much cooperative spirit from said corporations for his endeavour. They source their products from factories outside the USA precisely because doing so maximises their market share and profitability.
...and is indeed what Trump's own companies do.
Right, because the way it's set up, it's attractive for the companies to set up in low wage low regulation countries. The idea is to make it less attractive to do that, and at the same time, make it more attractive to set up in the US.
You're opposed to market economies now? In favour of mercantilism? Free trade only as long as the US wins? Go forth, fortress Amerika.
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Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:06 am

He reckons different regulations and some other bollocks that I can't remember aren't free trade. That's bullshit.
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Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Tero » Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:35 pm

pErvin wrote:I see they tried to assassinate Mike Pence. Those bastards! :lay:
No it was God. He confused Pence and Trump.
God: not the white haired one, hit the blonde with the orange face.

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Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Forty Two » Fri Oct 28, 2016 5:46 pm

FBI director Comey has "pertinent emails" about Hillary that appear to be significant enough to reopen the investigation -- http://www.cnbc.com/2016/10/28/fbi-prob ... mails.html
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Animavore » Fri Oct 28, 2016 5:56 pm

NEWS‘He’s a deadbeat’: Even Donald Trump’s Own Lawyers are Suing HimNathan Wellman | October 27, 2016

Instances of Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump refusing to pay what he owed to small businesses for services rendered have been well documented. The real estate tycoon would then often threaten legal action against those who protested, but Trump also has a history of underpaying the very lawyers who saved his company money.

Mother Jones reported that the Atlantic City law firm of Levine Staller saved Trump Entertainment $35 million in overpaid taxes, as well as slashed $15 million from the corporation’s future liabilities for a total of $50 million worth of savings. Trump then attempted to pay Levine Staller $1.25 million less than what had been previously agreed upon. Levine Staller was forced to sue its former client in 2012 to secure what was owed to them.

Another law firm, Morrison Cohen LLP, represented Trump in a lawsuit against a construction contractor that he said had “overcharged” him. Trump later attempted to sue Morrison Cohen LLP for using his name in promotional materials that referenced this case. In a countersuit that was settled confidentially, court documents ironically revealed that Trump hadn’t paid Morrison Cohen LLP nearly half a million dollars in legal fees.

“He’s a deadbeat,” said Florida lawyer Bill Scherer, who had been compelled to sue Trump in 1994 for a paltry $5,000 dollars worth of unpaid legal bills even after offering him a low rate in an attempt to “curry favor” with Trump.
http://usuncut.com/news/hes-deadbeat-ev ... ers-suing/
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Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:22 pm

Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Hermit wrote:To create American jobs would involve Apple, Intel, General Motors among many other American corporations to source their products from factories located in the USA. Somehow I don't think he'll find much cooperative spirit from said corporations for his endeavour. They source their products from factories outside the USA precisely because doing so maximises their market share and profitability.
...and is indeed what Trump's own companies do.
Right, because the way it's set up, it's attractive for the companies to set up in low wage low regulation countries. The idea is to make it less attractive to do that, and at the same time, make it more attractive to set up in the US.
You're opposed to market economies now? In favour of mercantilism? Free trade only as long as the US wins? Go forth, fortress Amerika.
Trump, a natural authoritarian like any CEO, probably has more of a command economy model in mind.
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Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Tero » Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:23 am

Healthcare:
Hillary-single payer system
Trump-single prayer system

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Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Tero » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:09 am

Damn Florida again:
A new Florida poll illuminates Donald Trump's ridiculously narrow ...
Washington Post-Oct 26, 2016
National polling correlates with state polling (predictably), so a ... It usually votes for the Democrat in recent elections, and Trump trails by 5 ...
Poll: Donald Trump holds slight lead in Florida
CBS News-Oct 26, 2016
Trump-Clinton polls tell a story, but not the one that counts
Opinion-Los Angeles Times-Oct 26, 2016
Trump Has 2-Point Edge in Bloomberg Politics Poll of Florida
In-Depth-Bloomberg-Oct 26, 2016
Florida Battle Map: Where Clinton and Trump Must Concentrate ...
Blog-Wall Street Journal (blog)-Oct 27, 2016

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Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Animavore » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:30 pm

IT TOOK LESS THAN 2 HOURS FOR THE NEW EMAIL INVESTIGATION STORY TO COMPLETELY COLLAPSE.

All the “big” things turned out to not exist. No, there is no evidence to suggest these new emails were covered up. No, they haven’t found anything incriminating. No, this isn’t a “reopening” of the case – it was never closed to the begin with and this is a small update not a gamechanger. And perhaps most importantly these emails did not even come from Hillary Clinton.

Bigger than Watergate? Hardly.

Like Wikileaks before it, this non-scandal will be used on the right to give the appearance that Hillary Clinton is “corrupt” without providing any concrete proof beyond it. There is no big story here, but the conservative movement will use it as a pretext to continue harassing Clinton and her campaign with baseless accusations. FBI Director James Comey may have scored a few political points with his Republican colleagues, but his investigation will likely yield zero fresh controversies.

This is the maddening world we live in. A sham built on a sham built on a sham. It’s shams all the way down.
http://www.ifyouonlynews.com/politics/i ... pse-video/

Meanwhile Trump is up for child rape and fraud next month. The desperation of Trump supporters is sickening at this stage.
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Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:36 pm

How long till this circus is over?
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Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Tyrannical » Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:02 pm

Lol, it's tens of thousands emails. Looks like all of them were forwarded there, it's how Huma archived her email.
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