Irredeemable?

Stein
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:04 am
Contact:

Irredeemable?

Post by Stein » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:19 am

From the beginning of Trump’s campaign, I’ve found his appeal to bigotries of all sorts utterly repugnant and just about as blatant as any of the appeals coming from racists of another time like George Wallace or Lester Maddox. That’s one big reason, among many, why I’m voting for Hillary Clinton this November.

However, while she still has my vote, I am troubled by Hillary Clinton’s remarks about Trump's supporters, not because of what she first says about the sorts of bigotries coming from many a Trump supporter. We’ve all heard those, and they are manifestly a part of the toxic mix behind the current Trump support.

What really troubles me is the back half of her remarks on some of the bigots supporting Trump: She says “they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America”. I wish she had apologized for that part of her remarks, but she never did. No one is irredeemable. Even George Wallace had a change of heart. No one has a right to arbitrarily foreclose on anyone’s having a change of heart. No one has a right to say any human being is irredeemable. To say anyone is irredeemable is to sound as if one has infallible wisdom, as if one is somehow a god. No one has that kind of wisdom. And even if one did have that sort of wisdom, one would then know that anyone like Wallace can certainly be redeemed. If Wallace himself could change, and he did, anyone can.

Not only is it troubling to arbitrarily say that no one can be redeemed, it is also a denial of reality to say “they are not America”. Of course, they are part of America. Sure, they are a bitter and sad part of America, but if one loves America, then one has to accept them as part of America too. If one is running for President, one has to love all of America, even the part that can give one pain and bitter disappointment. I utterly deplore where such supporters seem to be “coming from”. But if I hope to lift up America as President, then I have to hope for some measure of redemption and change of heart even among those Americans whose current feelings can turn my stomach. Despite my being sickened, a degree of compassion can still inspire hope in me that anyone can rise above any bigoted hatreds they have temporarily fallen into this election cycle.

That is the kind of love that one has for one’s own family, after all, and that’s the kind of love I would hope any President would have for this country, even when it’s momentarily riven by bigotries that are painfully hateful. Love of one’s family can sometimes help lift the most bitter of one’s loved ones beyond any hatred that may be dragging her down for a day or a year or more. At the same time, that same love can lift the bitterest places in our country up above the hateful bigotries of the moment. Of course, it’s a bitter hard slog of an assignment. There will be many and bitter disappointments. But if one loves one’s countrymen as a family, one will never give up despite those disappointments. The better angels of our nature are somewhere uniformly buried deep inside each of us. Sometimes we can bring them out. Sometimes not. But we never give up if we want to be President.

Thoughts?

Stein

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74177
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Irredeemable?

Post by JimC » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:30 am

Stein, you are a ray of sunshine in the bitter, twisted cesspool that is Rationalia...

And, as with all rays shining onto cesspools, swallowed up without trace...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
cronus
Black Market Analyst
Posts: 18122
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:09 pm
About me: Illis quos amo deserviam
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Irredeemable?

Post by cronus » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:35 am

When I was a young man and idealistic it was easy to believe some could come back to the human fold who had left it for whatever reason. But now approaching the cynical twilight of life it is easier to say and believe some are irredeemable and ain't never coming back.
What will the world be like after its ruler is removed?

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74177
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Irredeemable?

Post by JimC » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:43 am

The fact that some clearly do not "come back" doesn't mean that the potential for ethical awakening every fully disappears. It just means they die before it happens...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
cronus
Black Market Analyst
Posts: 18122
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:09 pm
About me: Illis quos amo deserviam
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Irredeemable?

Post by cronus » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:53 am

JimC wrote:The fact that some clearly do not "come back" doesn't mean that the potential for ethical awakening every fully disappears. It just means they die before it happens...
What will the world be like after its ruler is removed?

User avatar
rainbow
Posts: 13763
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:10 am
About me: Egal wie dicht du bist, Goethe war Dichter
Where ever you are, Goethe was a Poet.
Location: Africa
Contact:

Re: Irredeemable?

Post by rainbow » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:34 am

As I said before, either way America is buggered, and the only question is which candidate has the better lubricant.
I call bullshit - Alfred E Einstein
BArF−4

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60774
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Irredeemable?

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:18 am

I don't blame her for the statement. Let's be honest, it's more or less right. You don't sit down and have nice conversations with hate mongers. You tell them to fuck off and go play in the sand pit.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
Posts: 39981
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
About me: Ablate me:
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: Irredeemable?

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:44 pm

Irredeemable or unredeemable?

Anyway, much of contemporary political discourse centres around the idea of 'what we are not', of defining all virtue as residing in not being 'one of them.' It seems that all politicians are quick to validate their own virtue on the basis that at least they aren't pox-ridden kitten stranglers like that other lot are.

Most of Ms Clinton's rhetoric is no different to most of H. Trump's in this regard, amounting to little more than the cat-call, "You ain't no real 'Merican 'cause you just ain't one of us!' - whether that is being applied to first- or second-generation immigrants or to knuckle-dragging Trumpeteers.
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

User avatar
DaveDodo007
Posts: 2975
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:35 am
About me: When ever I behave as a man I am called sexist, It seems being a male is now illegal and nobody sent me the memo. Good job as I would have told them to fuck off.
Contact:

Re: Irredeemable?

Post by DaveDodo007 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:08 pm

If nothing else it is just bad politics, as you never attack the voters. Clinton and the democrats can say whatever they want about Trump and the GOP. Trump can say whatever they want about Clinton and the democrats. Does anyone remember Romney's "47%" and "Binders full of women" comments. He might as well packed up and gone home after that. In the Brexit referendum the remain camp throw every 'ism' and 'insult' they had at the leave voters and we all know how that turned out. It is just a bad strategy.
We should be MOST skeptical of ideas we like because we are sufficiently skeptical of ideas that we don't like. Penn Jillette.

User avatar
DaveDodo007
Posts: 2975
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:35 am
About me: When ever I behave as a man I am called sexist, It seems being a male is now illegal and nobody sent me the memo. Good job as I would have told them to fuck off.
Contact:

Re: Irredeemable?

Post by DaveDodo007 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:11 pm

pErvin wrote:I don't blame her for the statement. Let's be honest, it's more or less right. You don't sit down and have nice conversations with hate mongers. You tell them to fuck off and go play in the sand pit.
That's fine for you as an individual just don't try and get elected for office using such tactics.
We should be MOST skeptical of ideas we like because we are sufficiently skeptical of ideas that we don't like. Penn Jillette.

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60774
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Irredeemable?

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:35 am

In a sane country I'd more or less agree. But there really are a significant number of knuckle-dragging imbeciles in the US, that even the sane Merkans are embarrassed by. These people are so out on the fringes of socialised behaviour that it's not really going to offend any of the rest of the country if she insults them. She'll offend them, of course, but they would never in a thousand years vote for her anyway. She was careful to say that not all Trump supporters were like these people.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

Stein
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: Irredeemable?

Post by Stein » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:06 am

JimC wrote:Stein, you are a ray of sunshine in the bitter, twisted cesspool that is Rationalia...

And, as with all rays shining onto cesspools, swallowed up without trace...
Please don't get too choked up. I'm not proud of the fact that on boards like these I can sometimes get really exasperated and slip into a lousy temper tantrum, submitting postings I later regret. My wife sometimes asks me why I get involved in online exchanges like that if I get so upset. You know, that's a good question...............

Cheers,

Stein

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74177
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Irredeemable?

Post by JimC » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:19 am

Don't worry, my tongue was firmly in my cheek. Or someone's cheeks...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: Irredeemable?

Post by Hermit » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:05 am

Brian Peacock wrote:Irredeemable or unredeemable?
In my view 'unredeemable' is used in material contexts, such as "This kind of bottle is unredeemable for a deposit." 'Irredeemable' has a more moralistic, not to say mediaevally religious ring to it. Also, Google returns about 173k hits for the former and 1.16m for the latter. I blame the comix for the discrepancy.

Both Stein and Dodo ( Image !) are right. Even if some people were irredeemable, who on earth has such foreknowledge? And yes, insulting / condemning those you ought to discourage from voting for your opponent is a bad strategy.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

User avatar
rainbow
Posts: 13763
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:10 am
About me: Egal wie dicht du bist, Goethe war Dichter
Where ever you are, Goethe was a Poet.
Location: Africa
Contact:

Re: Irredeemable?

Post by rainbow » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:53 am

I call bullshit - Alfred E Einstein
BArF−4

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests