Healthcare... America and the rest

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Forty Two
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Re: Merkin insurance

Post by Forty Two » Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:40 pm

The worst fears are coming true alright -- http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2016/04/2 ... Hikes-2017

It's fucking ridiculously expensive, has not controlled costs, and is probably the worst piece of legislation to be passed by the United States Congress since the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850.

And, it's going to get more expensive. Those of us paying full freight pay more than double what insurance cost just over 2 years ago.

There is no defense to to this law. it's horrible. And, there are still about 30 million uninsured people -- basically, we paid out about a trillion dollars to insurance 15 million people who weren't insured before, and most of those people are paying most of the premiums for their own insurance. Obamacare was the largest hidden tax hike in American history.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Merkin insurance

Post by Tero » Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:23 pm

>> pay more than double what insurance cost just over 2 years ago.<<

You were incredibly lucky to have insurance at all before Obamacare.

For those in corporate plans, $ has not gone up. The corporations pay the entire bill. The insurance company is just a bookkeeper.

20 yrs ago: there were no drugs like Humira costing thousands of dollars a month.

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Re: Merkin insurance

Post by piscator » Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:07 pm

Seth wrote:
Tero wrote:Seth, Republicans had 20 years or more to fix healthcare. They did...nothing.
That's because nothing is what was supposed to be done. Government has no place involving itself in the private medical affairs of the public.



Last time I looked, "Promote the general Welfare" was in the same sentence as, "Establish Justice", "Ensure domestic Tranquility", "Provide for the common defence" and "Do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America"?


Perhaps someone with more experience reading the Skousen could point out how 'Promoting the general Welfare' is not a job of the US government?

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Re: Merkin insurance

Post by Forty Two » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:59 am

Tero wrote:>> pay more than double what insurance cost just over 2 years ago.<<

You were incredibly lucky to have insurance at all before Obamacare.
That, of course, is ridiculous on its face. Insurance was relatively cheap before Obamacare, and Obamacare didn't help most people get it. You still have to buy it, and now it's more expensive for most everyone. The people who were "poor" and qualified for medicaid got free insurance before, and people who were earning in the $30k to $40k range could buy insurance cheaper then than can now.

It wasn't hard to qualify for health insurance previously. I have know people personally who got coverage for a single person at just over $100 per month. Now they get Obamacare through the exchange at double and triple what they were paying before.

Before Obamacare, about 85% of the population had health insurance. Were they all lucky? And, of the uninsured more than 1/2 of the uninsured could afford it. Most of the uninsured made more than the national average income -- well over $50k and up to $75k made up most of the uninsured. Those people don't get subsidies of any substantial amount now, and they are compelled to buy health insurance at double what they could have paid for it before.

Tero wrote: For those in corporate plans, $ has not gone up.
Totally false. Check deductibles, and the portion of premiums paid by the employee has skyrocketed. They don't always "notice" it because it comes right out of people's paychecks.
Tero wrote: The corporations pay the entire bill. The insurance company is just a bookkeeper.

20 yrs ago: there were no drugs like Humira costing thousands of dollars a month.
Doesn't change the fact that costs have skyrocketed, premiums have skyrocketed, deductibles have increased, and copays have increased. I had this conversation with sales people from Aetna and BC/BS. The price they charge for premiums is so high, that they would have thought them impossible just a couple of years ago.

I'm not exaggerating on this. Obamacare is a horrible, horrible thing. Maybe it's by design. The only way out now appears to be socialized medicine or single payer. Insurance companies are starting to leave the exchanges. Which means the supply of carriers is dropping, and the exchanges are a marketplace -- so the remaining short supply of insurance companies will raise prices again. http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/19/investi ... anges-aca/ "It shouldn't come as a huge surprise. UnitedHealth had previously said that it lost $475 million on the ACA exchanges last year and could lose another $500 million this year."
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Merkin insurance

Post by Forty Two » Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:08 am

piscator wrote:
Seth wrote:
Tero wrote:Seth, Republicans had 20 years or more to fix healthcare. They did...nothing.
That's because nothing is what was supposed to be done. Government has no place involving itself in the private medical affairs of the public.



Last time I looked, "Promote the general Welfare" was in the same sentence as, "Establish Justice", "Ensure domestic Tranquility", "Provide for the common defence" and "Do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America"?


Perhaps someone with more experience reading the Skousen could point out how 'Promoting the general Welfare' is not a job of the US government?
The General Welfare Clause is not a grant of general legislative power. It's a qualification on the taxing and spending power. They are not grants of legislative power. That being said, Congress can do anything it wants in the furtherance of anything it considers to be in the general welfare, when it comes to taxing and spending. That's why the recent cases on Obamacare had all that discussion about whether it was a tax or not. The government wanted it to be a tax for Constitutionality purposes, but it played a shell game, suggesting that it was not a tax when it was politically expedient to say it's not a tax.

The lawmaking powers of the federal government are those listed in Article I, Sec 8 of the US Constitution. It's supposed to be a government of limited legislative power, but over the years federal power has expanded and expanded.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Merkin insurance

Post by laklak » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:44 pm

If you hire people on a full time basis to make laws that's exactly what they do.

Jesus I hate politics and politicians.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Merkin insurance

Post by piscator » Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:15 pm

Forty Two wrote:
piscator wrote:
Seth wrote:
Tero wrote:Seth, Republicans had 20 years or more to fix healthcare. They did...nothing.
That's because nothing is what was supposed to be done. Government has no place involving itself in the private medical affairs of the public.



Last time I looked, "Promote the general Welfare" was in the same sentence as, "Establish Justice", "Ensure domestic Tranquility", "Provide for the common defence" and "Do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America"?


Perhaps someone with more experience reading the Skousen could point out how 'Promoting the general Welfare' is not a job of the US government?
The General Welfare Clause is not a grant of general legislative power. It's a qualification on the taxing and spending power. They are not grants of legislative power. That being said, Congress can do anything it wants in the furtherance of anything it considers to be in the general welfare, when it comes to taxing and spending. That's why the recent cases on Obamacare had all that discussion about whether it was a tax or not. The government wanted it to be a tax for Constitutionality purposes, but it played a shell game, suggesting that it was not a tax when it was politically expedient to say it's not a tax.

The lawmaking powers of the federal government are those listed in Article I, Sec 8 of the US Constitution. It's supposed to be a government of limited legislative power, but over the years federal power has expanded and expanded.

Article I, Sec 8 of the US Constitution
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States..




So in other words, "Yes piscator, you're absolutely by-God right again! I wholeheartedly agree with you!"

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Re: Merkin insurance

Post by Forty Two » Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:47 pm

Yes, Piscator, exactly as I said -- the power to "Tax" and to "Spend" is limited by the phrase "general welfare."

It doesn't say Congress may legislate on any issue that it thinks is in the general welfare of the US. It may LAY AND COLLECT TAXES and PAY THE DEBTS in order to provide for the general welfare of the US.

That's exactly the distinction I made and that's exactly what the clause you cited to says -- and, it is exactly how the Supreme Court has ruled.

That's why court cases have argued about whether an act of Congress is a "tax" or whether it is another kind of law or regulation. If it's another kind of law or regulation, it has to have a basis in the other enumerated powers (most often the interstate commerce clause).
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Healthcare... America and the rest

Post by Tero » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:24 pm

Don't blame Obama, other than the fact that Healthcare.gov just goes through insurance companies and pays them a subsidy directly.

What is to blame? Doctors only get 10% of healthcare $.
Moreover, doctors’ net take-home pay amounts to only about 10 percent of overall healthcare spending. Which if cut by 10 percent would save about $24 billion – a considerably modest savings when compared to the $360 billion spent annually for administrative costs as estimated by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS), and the fact that 85 percent of excess administrative overhead can be attributed to the insurance system. Administrative costs for physicians are in the range of 25-30 percent of practice revenues and insurance-related costs are 15 percent of revenues, according to a National Academy of Social Insurance report for The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.
Once the physician impact on healthcare costs is placed in proper perspective, the true role of other key factors can be examined more clearly.

The first area is technology. There is consensus among experts that technology is the most important driver of healthcare spending increases over time. Installing and implementing electronic health records is costly – often as much as $25,000 per doctor for a system and a monthly subscription fee on top of that – and requires significant resources.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/physiciansf ... cd24f56714

AETNA passes blame
Hospital cost increases

The newly formed Health Care Cost Institute has found that rising prices for care were the chief driver of health care costs for privately insured Americans in 2011. Spending on health care services climbed 4.6 percent in 2011, well above the 3.8 percent growth rate found for 2010 and higher than expected for 2011. Prices rose for all major categories of health care, such as hospital stays and surgical procedures, but rose fastest for outpatient care.11

An increasingly important factor driving hospital price increases is consolidation of the hospital industry. Hospital mergers and acquisitions jumped by 33 percent between 2009 and 2010. Research shows that hospital market concentration leads to increases in the price of hospital care. In fact, price increases exceeded 20 percent when mergers occurred in concentrated markets.12

Provider prices

The prices that health care providers charge are much higher in the U.S. than in Europe, which, along with higher levels of obesity and greater access to advanced medical technology, is a primary driver of higher spending levels.13 Data show that after hospital spending the next biggest contributor to overall spending growth between 2005 and 2009 was the increase in physician and clinical service costs. These costs accounted for 18 percent of total growth or $229 per person over the five-year period.14

Medical technology

The increasing cost of medical technology is a significant contributor to higher health care spending. The implementation of new medical technology accounts for between 38 percent and 65 percent of health care spending increases. New technology expands the range of treatment options available to patients, but it does by replacing lower-cost options with higher-cost services.15

Waste

Wasteful spending likely accounts for between one-third and one-half of all U.S. health care spending. PricewaterhouseCoopers calculates that up to $1.2 trillion, or half of all health care spending, is the result of waste.16 An Institute of Medicine (IOM) report estimated unnecessary health spending totaled $750 billion in 2009 alone.17 The biggest area of excess is defensive medicine, including redundant, inappropriate or unnecessary tests and procedures. Other factors that contribute to wasteful spending include non-adherence to medical advice and prescriptions, alcohol abuse, smoking and obesity.
http://www.aetna.com/health-reform-conn ... costs.html

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Re: Healthcare... America and the rest

Post by Feck » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:37 pm

Can't have a genuine health-care system in a capitalist, for profit, market .
World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 USA
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Re: Healthcare... America and the rest

Post by Tero » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:11 pm

Evil drug company cures Alzheimer's. How much will you pay?
http://www.livescience.com/55951-aducan ... aques.html

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Re: Healthcare... America and the rest

Post by cronus » Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:41 am

Tero wrote:Evil drug company cures Alzheimer's. How much will you pay?
http://www.livescience.com/55951-aducan ... aques.html
Nothing, I will never suffer it. Parents sharp as nails on their death beds....so to speak. :coffee:
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Re: Healthcare... America and the rest

Post by JimC » Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:53 am

Our private health insurance costs are a fraction of what the Yanks are paying, plus rebates to visit a GP, and free public hospitals (albeit with long waiting lists for elective surgery, but emergency treatment is both prompt and free)

But then, we are all evil marxists, and deserve our terrible fate... :tea:
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Re: Healthcare... America and the rest

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:52 am

The World Bank says that the US spent 17.1% of GDP on health in 2014 compared to 9.5% and 9.1% for Australia and the UK respectively.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH. ... e&view=map
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Re: Healthcare... America and the rest

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:32 am

That list is bollocks btw.
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