Defence and the Free Market

[pErvinalia]

Why is the free market not good enough for the defence of the nation. Why is defence socialised? If the free market leads to the best outcomes and the most efficiency of spending, then why are our militaries and their spending under a command economy? If the free market isn't good enough for defence, then why is it allegedly good enough for things like health, education and science?

[JimC]

Most economies are mixed. Within such economies, some sectors are better if run by free enterprise (albeit with a carefully measured dose of oversight and regulation, and hopefully and effective union movement to foster worker's rights). Generally, agriculture, manufacturing, financial and service industries fall into that category. Other sectors, often involving infrastructure, are best as a blend, with government control (and sometimes actual ownership) but with the operation of the infrastructure tendered to private companies. For example, governments plan roads etc. but get private companies to build them. Then there are areas of critical concern to a sovereign nation, such as law enforcement, customs, judiciary, security services and military operations, which simply have to remain under government control. Even then, there is still private sector input - it would be rare in the western world for a government to own the factories which make military equipment of any sort...

[pErvinalia]

Nup, not good enough. Why is defence more important to the nation than health, education and science?

Regarding the your last point about factories, that's not really relevant as that doesn't mean our defence forces aren't socialised. The government, not the market, decides where money is best spent. The military is a command economy. If free marketeers reckon the market is good enough for other segments of our society, then why isn't it good enough for defence? Is this the ultimate admission that markets can't determine the best social outcome for a country?

[JimC]

Nup, not good enough. Why is defence more important to the nation than health, education and science?

Regarding the your last point about factories, that's not really relevant as that doesn't mean our defence forces aren't socialised. The government, not the market, decides where money is best spent. The military is a command economy. If free marketeers reckon the market is good enough for other segments of our society, then why isn't it good enough for defence? Is this the ultimate admission that markets can't determine the best social outcome for a country?

I think you've missed my point, which is not the same as fanatical free-marketeers would put it. Free markets are not an unfettered good, they work well in some sectors of an economy, not in others. Total state control vs totally free markets is a false dichotomy, a black and white position whereas the reality is shades of grey...

Possibly 50...

Even if some parts of the military operation would be more efficient under private control, no government should go down that path. The US did to an extent with Haliburton et al in Iraq, where serious problems ensued...

[pErvinalia]

I'm of course not arguing that it should go down that path. I want free marketers to explain why total socialism is fine in the military, but is evil in other parts of the economy.

[JimC]

I'm not sure whether you can call the military "total socialism" or the platoon would be run by a worker's collective rather than the young Lieutenant...

[Scot Dutchy]

What is defence selling btw?

[pErvinalia]

It's buying equipment and then performing a service.

[Scot Dutchy]

It's buying.

So how can it act in a free market? You have to sell something as well like services.

[pErvinalia]

It does sell devices. Defense of the nation. The taxpayer pays for that service. There is no market competition.

[Scot Dutchy]

It does sell devices. Defense of the nation. The taxpayer pays for that service. There is no market competition.

So no free market.

[pErvinalia]

Yes. That's my point.

[Scot Dutchy]

Yes. That's my point.

How would you create competition? Cant have two armies?

[pErvinalia]

Why not?

[pErvinalia]

And you don't need multiple armies. You have multiple companies like Blackwater tendering to run the military for X years