Election 2016 Thread

Locked
User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14978
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Forty Two » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:22 pm

eRv wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
eRv wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
eRv wrote:They really need to conclude this email investigation now. If they don't do it till after the convention, then whichever way it goes, one side will be claiming a conspiracy.
Oh, I'm sure the Obama Administration's Justice Department, of which the FBI is a part, will ensure that justice is done, even if it means finding the Democratic Party's presumptive nominee guilty of a crime. Seems legit.
So you reckon the bureaucracy and the FBI are corrupt?
It was declared so by Democrat supporters back in 2001-2008. Not sure why anyone who thought there was corruption then would think it went away. They may think the Democrat party is immune to corruption, I guess, or serve better angels.

I reckon that an administration that would use the IRS to attack opposing political groups wouldn't find it too unacceptable to exert a small bit of influence on folks who can exercise prosecutorial discretion in their jobs to see the evidence in a certain light.
If you have no faith in the impartiality of your judicial and federal police services, then there's not much I can say. I suppose this is a forerunner of the conspiracy theory from the conservative side that will result if there is no action forthcoming from the investigation.
Right now, we're not talking about the judicial branch. The Department of Justice is headed by the US Attorney General who is a member of the President's cabinet. It's a political appointment. The FBI is headed by James Comey who reports directly to the DOJ, including James Clapper and Lorretta Lynch (Lynch in the President's cabinet, and Clapper as a chief national intelligence adviser to the President)

Of course I don't have "faith" in the bureaucracy. Why would I? Has there never been corruption. We need to be critical of bureaucracy, skeptical of its motives, and watchful of its behavior. It has nothing to do with conservatives vs. liberal or leftists. When there was a different President, nobody on the left trusted the Bush Administration's justice department "on faith," and nobody thought it was above corruption. Not sure why you would be so naive as to think there cannot be influence peddled or used in a Democrat administration.

You think the Obama administration is above it all? There aren't political connections in play? Especially when there is so much at stake. Now we have Hillary with the nomination locked up. If she is destroyed now, it would really be a blow to the Democrat's ability to hold the White House.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14978
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Forty Two » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:23 pm

eRv wrote:You do know "a number" is a number greater than one, right?
You do know that "like" means "similar to" or "having the same qualities as..."
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60729
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:28 pm

Forty Two wrote:
eRv wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
eRv wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
Oh, I'm sure the Obama Administration's Justice Department, of which the FBI is a part, will ensure that justice is done, even if it means finding the Democratic Party's presumptive nominee guilty of a crime. Seems legit.
So you reckon the bureaucracy and the FBI are corrupt?
It was declared so by Democrat supporters back in 2001-2008. Not sure why anyone who thought there was corruption then would think it went away. They may think the Democrat party is immune to corruption, I guess, or serve better angels.

I reckon that an administration that would use the IRS to attack opposing political groups wouldn't find it too unacceptable to exert a small bit of influence on folks who can exercise prosecutorial discretion in their jobs to see the evidence in a certain light.
If you have no faith in the impartiality of your judicial and federal police services, then there's not much I can say. I suppose this is a forerunner of the conspiracy theory from the conservative side that will result if there is no action forthcoming from the investigation.
Right now, we're not talking about the judicial branch. The Department of Justice is headed by the US Attorney General who is a member of the President's cabinet. It's a political appointment. The FBI is headed by James Comey who reports directly to the DOJ, including James Clapper and Lorretta Lynch (Lynch in the President's cabinet, and Clapper as a chief national intelligence adviser to the President)

Of course I don't have "faith" in the bureaucracy. Why would I? Has there never been corruption. We need to be critical of bureaucracy, skeptical of its motives, and watchful of its behavior. It has nothing to do with conservatives vs. liberal or leftists. When there was a different President, nobody on the left trusted the Bush Administration's justice department "on faith," and nobody thought it was above corruption. Not sure why you would be so naive as to think there cannot be influence peddled or used in a Democrat administration.

You think the Obama administration is above it all? There aren't political connections in play? Especially when there is so much at stake. Now we have Hillary with the nomination locked up. If she is destroyed now, it would really be a blow to the Democrat's ability to hold the White House.
I don't know how it works with the bureaucracy there, but here the government and opposition do genuinely try not to politicise it. It's kind of considered one of those touchstones of our democracy, like not bashing the military (which I of course disagree with.. :) ). That changed a bit with ultra-conservative Tony Abbott, the original PM of the current government before he got booted by his own party. Aside from the Abbott aberration (and a growing tendency with the former conservative government) the bureaucracy here is pretty impartial and seem to do a fairly good job. That's not to say there isn't questionable behaviour from time to time.
Last edited by pErvinalia on Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60729
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:29 pm

Forty Two wrote:
eRv wrote:You do know "a number" is a number greater than one, right?
You do know that "like" means "similar to" or "having the same qualities as..."
How do you know which news outlets and people I've seen read it the same way as I have? :think:
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 41035
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Svartalf » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:05 pm

eRv wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
eRv wrote:They really need to conclude this email investigation now. If they don't do it till after the convention, then whichever way it goes, one side will be claiming a conspiracy.
Oh, I'm sure the Obama Administration's Justice Department, of which the FBI is a part, will ensure that justice is done, even if it means finding the Democratic Party's presumptive nominee guilty of a crime. Seems legit.
So you reckon the bureaucracy and the FBI are corrupt?
The FBI and NSA have been corrupt at least since the Patriot Act was passed, possibly long before
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
piscator
Posts: 4725
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:11 am
Location: The Big BSOD
Contact:

Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by piscator » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:23 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:It always amazes that there are actual people who support him. To think this idiot is going to do anything good for the country requires a level of reasoning only found in worms.
That's true to the extend that the likelihood of Trump being able to accomplish the task of retaining, much less retrieving, US manufacturing, etc., is not high. That being said, Hillary doesn't even want to try. And, to think that Hillary is going to do anything good for the country requires tortured and irrational wish-thinking, contrary to all of the facts and history.

She's a war hawk, and was behind much of the Libya fiasco. She was pro Iraq War. Pro Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo and Serbia. She supports battlefield nukes. She is a hawk on Iran. She is bought and paid for by Wall Street, we know that - we can see that. You'd be concerned about the funding from Wall Street, if they were buying Donald Trump, wouldn't you?

You'll say anything, won't you? And no one's paying you, so you're doing this for your personal entertainment.


"Hillary's a war hawk." How can this be an issue for a Republican? If you were a peacenik, you wouldn't support the Republican Party at all. There were ZERO Republican votes against going into Iraq. You and your pal Trump damn sure would have been all for it. This sort of thing is what I mean when I say you are a partisan hack that just doesn't give a fuck about what you say.


"Funding from Wall Street" Your boy Trump has an office at 40 Wall Street. Jesus fucking Christ, you must not have known this? If "Wall Street" is a problem for you, it's inconceivable that you could hold Trump to be unstained by Wall Street.
But you don't care about "Wall Street" in the OWS/Bernie sense. You're just trying to play "guilt by association" because Bernie got traction with it, but the fuckup you support would be one of those same Wall Street criminals that got bailed out by the Fed if he had half a chance, and was probably cheering on the cops with their pepper spray at the time of the OWS sitins, just like you.

http://usliberals.about.com/od/liberall ... ayVote.htm


I mean - pickens are thin. So, when you're down to deciding who to vote for, we have someone, albeit who speaks indelicately to say the least, who is a worker. A guy focused on success. A guy whose ideas, by and large, are rather liberal. Fair trade, he calls for. Fair trade deals -- stop allowing low wage produced products to be dumped on the US market to undercut US producers (costing American jobs and depressing wages). Fair geopolitical relations, having our allies pay some of the freight on defense issues, and working to allow them the means to defend themselves better.
Ohh, so Trump's doing it for them? That's mighty white of him.
Protectionism and abandoning NATO appeals to isolationists, but every time America tries isolationism she ends up being punk'd.
Jet travel, internet, satcoms - the world doesn't work the same way it did back when the majority of us died in the same county in which we were born and raised. You can't unwind the clock on 100 years of gunboat diplomacy and two World Wars either. Isolationism is a fool's desire. America is too damn big for that since WWI.

Moreover, the supply of labor is only going to go up. It will soon outstrip demand by such a degree that offshoring labor will be the expensive route. Labor is not a growth sector. Millions and millions of people will be out of jobs regardless of whether you start a trade war with the world or not.


A halt to initiation of force, but a promise robust and devastating response when attacked, particularly with regard to ISIS now, where rather than secretly running guns to Syria (like Hillary's state department did), he's wants to openly shut down ISIS. And, Trump knows that it will take some military action to do so, but he also knows that ISIS is being propped up. They would not survive if you cut their supply lines. Trucks and planes are going to ISIS controlled areas filled with supplies. Fleets of Toyota trucks. Arms. The like. Whose letting them through the borders?

So, sure, is Trump a guy to be preferred? No. But, over Clinton? Absolutely. Not even an argument.

You're right, that's not an argument. That's a fucked up mess of a word salad...

I think what you're trying to say is, "I believe every negative accusation against Hillary there ever was because I've been a Republican since before Gerald Ford, and an avid talk radio fan since 1991. Trump's the Republican Nominee, so I have to do whatever I can to get him elected. If I have to say something as fucked up as, "Hillary is a dangerous war hawk" and follow it up with "We'll halt force, but definitely attack ISIS", then that's what I'll have to do. The idea is to convince people that Trump is a guy who can speak softly and carry a big stick, like that great Republican Teddy Roosevelt said."

User avatar
piscator
Posts: 4725
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:11 am
Location: The Big BSOD
Contact:

Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by piscator » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:48 pm

Forty Two wrote:
eRv wrote:They really need to conclude this email investigation now. If they don't do it till after the convention, then whichever way it goes, one side will be claiming a conspiracy.
Oh, I'm sure the Obama Administration's Justice Department, of which the FBI is a part, will ensure that justice is done, even if it means finding the Democratic Party's presumptive nominee guilty of a crime. Seems legit.

The email scandal is an ex post wingnut media creation. No way is the FBI or other fed LEO agency gonna conclude that there's good evidence to satisfy the mens rea elements of the subject criminal statutes. Did you read the IG's report? 60 other top Dept. of State officials also used private email for official communications during HRC's tenure, as did Colin Powell when he was SecState. Private email use had become the accepted norm. Pretty damn tough to satisfy a criminal mens rea standard when everybody else is doing it.

OTOH, it's stupid easy to prove mens rea on an obstruction of justice or spoliation of evidence charge when a party to litigation destroys emails that are the subject of outstanding discovery requests:


According to USA Today, transcripts from a 2006 lawsuit against the big bouncing birthday boy Donald Trump, who turns 70 today—when did he get so big??—reveal that his company, the Trump Organization, regularly erased all emails from 1996 to 2001.

Email figured prominently in the lawsuit, filed by Trump’s publicly traded casino company, Trump Hotels and Casino Resorts, against a former employee Richard Fields. From USA Today:

The gist of the Trump company’s suit in a Broward County, Fla., court was that while he was working with Trump, Fields had developed the idea of working with the Seminole Tribe in Florida to build a casino, then told Trump the idea wasn’t going to fly. Fields then left Trump’s employ at the end of the 1990s and struck the same deal with other partners.

Trump sued Fields and the companies he had ended up working with on a Seminole casino, arguing that Trump Hotels should be entitled to all profits the casinos produced, which were expected at the time to be more than $1 billion over 10 years.

The companies Trump sued argued that if it was true that Trump Hotels had been pursuing a similar deal with the tribe, there would be emails and other records documenting their discussions. The judge agreed and ordered Trump Hotels to hand over emails, financial documents, executive meeting calendars and so forth.

But the emails no longer existed (if they ever had). “My understanding from speaking to my client is that there are no emails,” Trump company’s lawyer, Robert Borrello, said at a March 2006 hearing. “They don’t keep emails from the time period from ’96 until within the last couple of years, when the organization instituted retention procedures for keeping emails electronically.” An IT director testified that there were no routine procedures in place for preserving emails before 2005. Also, Borrello said, Trump himself didn’t even use email.

The judge in the case was baffled. “He has a house up in Palm Beach County listed for $125 million, but he doesn’t keep emails. That’s a tough one,” Judge Jeffrey Streitfeld said. “If somebody starts to put forth as a fact something that doesn’t make any sense to me and causes me to have a concern about their credibility in the discovery process, that’s not a good direction to go, and I am really having a hard time with this.”

Despite this, Trump has not shied away from criticizing Hillary Clinton for using her own private email server as secretary of state and deleting emails she thought private. “And where are your 33,000 emails that you deleted?” he asked on Twitter last week, after Clinton told him to delete his account. “What she did is a criminal situation,” he said on CBS earlier this month. “She wasn’t supposed to do that with the server and the emails.”

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14978
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Forty Two » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:27 pm

piscator wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
eRv wrote:They really need to conclude this email investigation now. If they don't do it till after the convention, then whichever way it goes, one side will be claiming a conspiracy.
Oh, I'm sure the Obama Administration's Justice Department, of which the FBI is a part, will ensure that justice is done, even if it means finding the Democratic Party's presumptive nominee guilty of a crime. Seems legit.
piscator wrote: The email scandal is an ex post wingnut media creation.


How do you know this? She admitted she did something incorrectly. She's apologized. She said, regarding her private email practice, "That was a mistake. I'm sorry." So, it's not a creation that she did something she shouldn't have. The issue is whether it was illegal. Her stance, of course, "evolved" over time - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... nsibility/
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14978
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Forty Two » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:51 pm

Clinton Foundation may have received almost $18 million from foreign governments while Hillary was Secretary of State -- http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/14/exclu ... donations/
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14978
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Forty Two » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:55 pm

“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60729
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:25 pm

"Where does this stop? Are we going to start treating all Muslim-Americans differently? Are we going to start subjecting them to special surveillance? Are we going to start discriminating against them because of their faith? Do Republican officials actually agree with this?"

Doesn't sound like a tantrum. Sounds eminently reasonable.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 41035
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by Svartalf » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:51 pm

funny how there are repeated muslim assaults but he refuses to name that... one could wonder if he'sd not actually a secret muslim if he goes on like that
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
piscator
Posts: 4725
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:11 am
Location: The Big BSOD
Contact:

Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by piscator » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:21 pm

Forty Two wrote:
piscator wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
eRv wrote:They really need to conclude this email investigation now. If they don't do it till after the convention, then whichever way it goes, one side will be claiming a conspiracy.
Oh, I'm sure the Obama Administration's Justice Department, of which the FBI is a part, will ensure that justice is done, even if it means finding the Democratic Party's presumptive nominee guilty of a crime. Seems legit.
piscator wrote: The email scandal is an ex post wingnut media creation.


How do you know this? She admitted she did something incorrectly. She's apologized. She said, regarding her private email practice, "That was a mistake. I'm sorry." So, it's not a creation that she did something she shouldn't have. The issue is whether it was illegal.

And I just told you that no prosecution team would ever be able to meet the standard for calling anything she did wrt emails "Illegal".

Moreover, your Republican friends Bush and Cheney lost 22 million emails under much shadier circumstances in 2007 and nothing happened to them, so Republicans and Trump Party hacks are fucking hypocrites to be hoping and masturbating over emails the way you are, when you know your precedents cleared the way for high officials to delete whatever the fuck they want, whenever they want.


And really, do you think Harvard law scholar Obama would endorse Hillary at this point if he knew indictments were coming down? He would certainly be in a position to know, or at least evaluate the evidence before he put his brand on the line. He could have waited until after the Convention, and no one would have said a thing about it. But he didn't - Obama endorsed Hillary before the primaries were over.


See what happens when you rely on a third party to win your election for you? #sad

User avatar
piscator
Posts: 4725
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:11 am
Location: The Big BSOD
Contact:

Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by piscator » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:27 pm

eRv wrote:"Where does this stop? Are we going to start treating all Muslim-Americans differently? Are we going to start subjecting them to special surveillance? Are we going to start discriminating against them because of their faith? Do Republican officials actually agree with this?"

Doesn't sound like a tantrum. Sounds eminently reasonable.

Watch it. Obama tears the Trump Party a new asshole (as if they didn't already have enough!). That man can lay it down.

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60729
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Election 2016 Thread

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:54 am

piscator wrote: And really, do you think Harvard law scholar Obama would endorse Hillary at this point if he knew indictments were coming down? He would certainly be in a position to know, or at least evaluate the evidence before he put his brand on the line. He could have waited until after the Convention, and no one would have said a thing about it. But he didn't - Obama endorsed Hillary before the primaries were over.
He's instructed the FBI to not find against her, or they will be sent to the re-education camps.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests