Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

[pErvinalia]

Thanks, but the Church of Scotland does not allow equal marriage. I don't know about the others. The MCC definitely does allow it.

It is not homophobic which is what we are on about:

Human sexuality

There is a division in the Church of Scotland on how the issues surrounding homosexuality should be addressed. While the church has traditionally adopted a "hate the sin but love the sinner" approach, in recent years some within the church, including official bodies and congregations, have pushed for LGBT people to be fully welcomed and affirmed. This division of approach is illustrated by opposition to an attempt to install as minister an openly homosexual man who intends to live with his partner once appointed to his post.[16] In a landmark decision, the General Assembly (GA) voted on 23 May 2009 by 326 to 267 to ratify the appointment of the Reverend Scott Rennie, the Kirk's first openly "practising" homosexual minister. The decision was reached on the basis the presbytery had followed the correct procedure. Rennie had won the overwhelming support of his prospective church members at Queen's Cross, Aberdeen, but his appointment was in some doubt until extensive debate and this vote by the commissioners to the assembly. The GA later agreed upon a moratorium on the appointment of further "practising" homosexuals until after a special commission has reported on the matter.[17] (See: Ordination of homosexuals)

As a result of these developments, a new grouping of congregations within the church was begun "to declare their clear commitment to historic Christian orthodoxy", known as the Fellowship of Confessing Churches.[18] In May 2011, the GA of the Church of Scotland voted to appoint a theological commission, with a view to fully investigating the matter, reporting to the General Assembly of 2013. Meanwhile, openly homosexual ministers ordained before 2009 would be allowed to keep their posts without fear of sanction.[19] On 20 May 2013, the GA voted in favour of allowing gay ministers.[20] It was reported that seceding congregations had a combined annual income of £1 million.[21] Since 2008, 25 out of 808 (3%) ministers had left the over the issue.[22]

The church opposed proposals for same-sex marriage, stating that "The government's proposal fundamentally changes marriage as it is understood in our country and our culture – that it is a relationship between one man and one woman."[23] However, in 2015, the Church of Scotland's GA voted in favour of recommending that gay ministers be able to enter into same-sex marriages, and the issue will be finalised in 2016.[24][25] On May 21, 2016, the GA voted in favour of the approval for gay and lesbian ministers to enter into same-sex marriages.[26]

Regarding transgender issues, many congregations and clergy within the denomination affirm the full inclusion of transgender and other LGBTI people within the church through Affirmation Scotland.[27][28]

So does the Church of Scotland officiate its own gay marriage services or not? If not, it's homophobic. Whose side are you on here?

If there are opposing views in a Church, then they aren't a monolithic entity. This is YET ANOTHER case of you having a confused argument. If Islam can't be labelled as monolithic, neither can the Church of Scotland.

Well I think it's homophobic for an organisation to have a policy against gay marriage. Don't you?

What I think is irrelevant to whether your argument makes sense or not. Why is the Church of Scotland now all of a sudden an "organisation", instead of a religion defined by its followers? Do you see what you are doing? You rail against what you consider imprecise language when it comes to Islam, but you do the very same thing when it comes to Christianity, capitalism and the West.

Islam isn't an organisation,

Then neither is the religious beliefs of the people who associate with the Church of Scotland.

and it doesn't have any policies common to the whole of Islam.

Other than following the teachings of the same prophet, the same god, and the same book. Other than believing in a world view that places more value on the afterlife than the present life.

But the church of Scotland does have policies that are common to the whole of the church of Scotland.

Why the fuck are policies so important? Now all of a sudden you are reducing religion to a set of policies. Why? And how is this "organisational" hierarchy any different to the organisational hierarchy present in Islamic theocracies?

I don't understand your anger. Except if you know I'm right, and you don't like being wrong. That's probably it.

No, it's because you are an offensive and dishonest twerp.

[Exi5tentialist]

Rev it is precisely my point that Christianity and Islam cannot be reduced to a set of policies, because they are not organisations. The church of Scotland very much is an organisation. I have said this.

You are arguing just for the sake of it. Why?

[NineBerry]

Booooring

[Exi5tentialist]

Booooring

Thank you

[Tyrannical]

Rev it is precisely my point that Christianity and Islam cannot be reduced to a set of policies, because they are not organisations. The church of Scotland very much is an organisation. I have said this.

You are arguing just for the sake of it. Why?

Islam can, because islam is religion and government all wrapped up into one package.

[Exi5tentialist]

Rev it is precisely my point that Christianity and Islam cannot be reduced to a set of policies, because they are not organisations. The church of Scotland very much is an organisation. I have said this.

You are arguing just for the sake of it. Why?

Islam can, because islam is religion and government all wrapped up into one package.

Some governments co-opt islam as part of their organisation, but that makes the government the organisation, not the religion.

[cronus]

Rev it is precisely my point that Christianity and Islam cannot be reduced to a set of policies, because they are not organisations. The church of Scotland very much is an organisation. I have said this.

You are arguing just for the sake of it. Why?

Islam can, because islam is religion and government all wrapped up into one package.

Some governments co-opt islam as part of their organisation, but that makes the government the organisation, not the religion.

Sods law. Toast is the same no matter which way it lands....

[Exi5tentialist]

Sods law. Toast is the same no matter which way it lands....

Indeed, and if we were talking about toast, that would be relevant.

[Svartalf]

let's face it, most islamic states with the exception of Iran have a totally secular government

[Exi5tentialist]

let's face it, most islamic states with the exception of Iran have a totally secular government

The state in Turkey is secular, but I don't see the justification for that comment otherwise, unless it was sarcasm, in which case how does it address anything in this thread?

[JimC]

His dad has p;osted a video saying (among other things): "Addressing the people of Afghanistan, Seddique Mateen said in the video: “I don’t know what made him [do this], I have no idea, I had no idea that he felt resentful in his heart and had gone to the gay [he uses the derogatory word hamjensbazi] club and killed men and women there.

“I am very sad and I’ve announced this to the American people as well. Why did he do this act during this holy month of Ramadan. On the topic of being hamjensbazi, punishment and the things that they do, God will give the punishment. This is not the issue for a follower of God and he [Omar] that did this has greatly saddened me. I wanted you to know this. God give all youth complete health to keep the real path of the holy religion of Islam in mind.”" http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016 ... ?CMP=fb_gu

Yes. Of course religion has nothing to do with homophobia...

Some religions do, some don't. LGBT Muslims need support, not islamophobic harassment.

In reality, the vast majority of harassment and violence they endure comes from fellow muslims, those with orthodox, rigid views. In Bangladesh, gays are being killed with machetes at a fairly steady rate, by fundamentalist muslims...

In the Orlando case, it is abundantly clear that islamic fundamentalism was a major contributing factor to the perpetrator's hatred of gays...

[JimC]

Hermit wrote:

...While I see no religion as monolithic, I do regard some of their undercurrents to be general trends. So, yes, we can say that Islam and Christianity, splintered as they both are and despite exceptions to the contrary, possess very strong streaks of homophobia and more expansively, sexism. I dare say that both streaks are less pronounced among atheists while allowing that atheism is not a monolithic entity either and that there are homophobes and sexists among its members as well....

Oh no! You have written a nuanced comment about variations within religions! You are clearly a racist islamophobic homophobe!

[Exi5tentialist]

Hermit wrote:

...While I see no religion as monolithic, I do regard some of their undercurrents to be general trends. So, yes, we can say that Islam and Christianity, splintered as they both are and despite exceptions to the contrary, possess very strong streaks of homophobia and more expansively, sexism. I dare say that both streaks are less pronounced among atheists while allowing that atheism is not a monolithic entity either and that there are homophobes and sexists among its members as well....

Oh no! You have written a nuanced comment about variations within religions! You are clearly a racist islamophobic homophobe!

Please explain this logic. Have you been reading the discussion, or are you just making sarky comments without bothering to do that?

[mistermack]

In the Orlando case, it is abundantly clear that islamic fundamentalism was a major contributing factor to the perpetrator's hatred of gays...

That's not the impression I get from interviews of people who knew him.

He seems to be someone who was showing all the signs of being a psychopath, with hatred for almost everyone. It's pretty likely that he would have hated gays even if he wasn't Islamic.

His phone call about ISIS is pretty much what you'd expect from someone like him, who was planning a rampage that he knew he wasn't going to survive.
There haven't been any reports that I've heard, that he was involved in religious fundamentalism.

I get the impression that he was just another nutter with a gun, who happened this time to be a moslem.

But maybe more of the story will come out later.

[JimC]

In the Orlando case, it is abundantly clear that islamic fundamentalism was a major contributing factor to the perpetrator's hatred of gays...

That's not the impression I get from interviews of people who knew him.

He seems to be someone who was showing all the signs of being a psychopath, with hatred for almost everyone. It's pretty likely that he would have hated gays even if he wasn't Islamic.

His phone call about ISIS is pretty much what you'd expect from someone like him, who was planning a rampage that he knew he wasn't going to survive.
There haven't been any reports that I've heard, that he was involved in religious fundamentalism.

I get the impression that he was just another nutter with a gun, who happened this time to be a moslem.

But maybe more of the story will come out later.

Certainly he may have hated gays independent of his religion, but it's also pretty clear from his father's comments that he would have been influenced by the version of islam that detests gays, so at the very least it is a contributing factor...