Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

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Re: Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:52 pm

Exi5tentialist wrote:
eRv wrote::roll: If a billion people call themselves followers of Christianity, then they are followers of Christianity.
Which Christianity? There are billions of them.
Here we go again. You are changing your story AGAIN. You just said that the followers of religion define that religion. Those billion people call themselves CHRISTIANS. :fp:
Even you had to admit this early.
What does that even mean?
Oh ffs, do I have to explain elementary English to you now?
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Re: Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

Post by Exi5tentialist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:53 pm

eRv wrote:
Exi5tentialist wrote:
eRv wrote:I don't know what you are saying any more, you've changed your story so many times.
Where have I changed my story? I actually haven't, which is the reason why you can't show us where I have.
I've pointed it out every time you've done it across multiple threads. You've repeatedly ignored most of those posts.
But despite your repeatedly having "pointed it out" you're never able to provide any links.

Which kinda means it didn't happen, doesn't it?

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Re: Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:56 pm

Fuck off. There's a number of examples of it on the last three pages, lying cunt.
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Re: Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

Post by Exi5tentialist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:57 pm

eRv wrote:
Exi5tentialist wrote:
eRv wrote::roll: If a billion people call themselves followers of Christianity, then they are followers of Christianity.
Which Christianity? There are billions of them.
Here we go again. You are changing your story AGAIN. You just said that the followers of religion define that religion. Those billion people call themselves CHRISTIANS. :fp:
No man, YOU are changing my story AGAIN. You just confuse your changes for me having made changes.

The whole question of "following" a religion is not one I have even discussed, so I don't know where you get that I "just said that the followers of a religion define that religion". That rather puts the cart before the horse doesn't it? If you understand my simple views on the matter correctly, which you obviously choose not to.
Even you had to admit this early.
What does that even mean?
Oh ffs, do I have to explain elementary English to you now?[/quote]
Stop being so childish. First, I did not "admit this". Second, what are you talking about, "early"???? It's five o'clock in the afternoon. What time do you get out of bed?

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Re: Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:58 pm

Exi5tentialist wrote: Thanks, but the Church of Scotland does not allow equal marriage. I don't know about the others. The MCC definitely does allow it.
It is not homophobic which is what we are on about:
Human sexuality

There is a division in the Church of Scotland on how the issues surrounding homosexuality should be addressed. While the church has traditionally adopted a "hate the sin but love the sinner" approach, in recent years some within the church, including official bodies and congregations, have pushed for LGBT people to be fully welcomed and affirmed. This division of approach is illustrated by opposition to an attempt to install as minister an openly homosexual man who intends to live with his partner once appointed to his post.[16] In a landmark decision, the General Assembly (GA) voted on 23 May 2009 by 326 to 267 to ratify the appointment of the Reverend Scott Rennie, the Kirk's first openly "practising" homosexual minister. The decision was reached on the basis the presbytery had followed the correct procedure. Rennie had won the overwhelming support of his prospective church members at Queen's Cross, Aberdeen, but his appointment was in some doubt until extensive debate and this vote by the commissioners to the assembly. The GA later agreed upon a moratorium on the appointment of further "practising" homosexuals until after a special commission has reported on the matter.[17] (See: Ordination of homosexuals)

As a result of these developments, a new grouping of congregations within the church was begun "to declare their clear commitment to historic Christian orthodoxy", known as the Fellowship of Confessing Churches.[18] In May 2011, the GA of the Church of Scotland voted to appoint a theological commission, with a view to fully investigating the matter, reporting to the General Assembly of 2013. Meanwhile, openly homosexual ministers ordained before 2009 would be allowed to keep their posts without fear of sanction.[19] On 20 May 2013, the GA voted in favour of allowing gay ministers.[20] It was reported that seceding congregations had a combined annual income of £1 million.[21] Since 2008, 25 out of 808 (3%) ministers had left the over the issue.[22]

The church opposed proposals for same-sex marriage, stating that "The government's proposal fundamentally changes marriage as it is understood in our country and our culture – that it is a relationship between one man and one woman."[23] However, in 2015, the Church of Scotland's GA voted in favour of recommending that gay ministers be able to enter into same-sex marriages, and the issue will be finalised in 2016.[24][25] On May 21, 2016, the GA voted in favour of the approval for gay and lesbian ministers to enter into same-sex marriages.[26]

Regarding transgender issues, many congregations and clergy within the denomination affirm the full inclusion of transgender and other LGBTI people within the church through Affirmation Scotland.[27][28]
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Re: Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

Post by Exi5tentialist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:58 pm

eRv wrote:Fuck off. There's a number of examples of it on the last three pages, lying cunt.
There are NONE on the last three pages.

What does that make you?

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Re: Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

Post by Exi5tentialist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:01 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Exi5tentialist wrote: Thanks, but the Church of Scotland does not allow equal marriage. I don't know about the others. The MCC definitely does allow it.
It is not homophobic which is what we are on about:
Human sexuality

There is a division in the Church of Scotland on how the issues surrounding homosexuality should be addressed. While the church has traditionally adopted a "hate the sin but love the sinner" approach, in recent years some within the church, including official bodies and congregations, have pushed for LGBT people to be fully welcomed and affirmed. This division of approach is illustrated by opposition to an attempt to install as minister an openly homosexual man who intends to live with his partner once appointed to his post.[16] In a landmark decision, the General Assembly (GA) voted on 23 May 2009 by 326 to 267 to ratify the appointment of the Reverend Scott Rennie, the Kirk's first openly "practising" homosexual minister. The decision was reached on the basis the presbytery had followed the correct procedure. Rennie had won the overwhelming support of his prospective church members at Queen's Cross, Aberdeen, but his appointment was in some doubt until extensive debate and this vote by the commissioners to the assembly. The GA later agreed upon a moratorium on the appointment of further "practising" homosexuals until after a special commission has reported on the matter.[17] (See: Ordination of homosexuals)

As a result of these developments, a new grouping of congregations within the church was begun "to declare their clear commitment to historic Christian orthodoxy", known as the Fellowship of Confessing Churches.[18] In May 2011, the GA of the Church of Scotland voted to appoint a theological commission, with a view to fully investigating the matter, reporting to the General Assembly of 2013. Meanwhile, openly homosexual ministers ordained before 2009 would be allowed to keep their posts without fear of sanction.[19] On 20 May 2013, the GA voted in favour of allowing gay ministers.[20] It was reported that seceding congregations had a combined annual income of £1 million.[21] Since 2008, 25 out of 808 (3%) ministers had left the over the issue.[22]

The church opposed proposals for same-sex marriage, stating that "The government's proposal fundamentally changes marriage as it is understood in our country and our culture – that it is a relationship between one man and one woman."[23] However, in 2015, the Church of Scotland's GA voted in favour of recommending that gay ministers be able to enter into same-sex marriages, and the issue will be finalised in 2016.[24][25] On May 21, 2016, the GA voted in favour of the approval for gay and lesbian ministers to enter into same-sex marriages.[26]

Regarding transgender issues, many congregations and clergy within the denomination affirm the full inclusion of transgender and other LGBTI people within the church through Affirmation Scotland.[27][28]
So does the Church of Scotland officiate its own gay marriage services or not? If not, it's homophobic. Whose side are you on here?

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Re: Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:01 pm

Exi5tentialist wrote:
eRv wrote:
Exi5tentialist wrote:
eRv wrote::roll: If a billion people call themselves followers of Christianity, then they are followers of Christianity.
Which Christianity? There are billions of them.
Here we go again. You are changing your story AGAIN. You just said that the followers of religion define that religion. Those billion people call themselves CHRISTIANS. :fp:
No man, YOU are changing my story AGAIN. You just confuse your changes for me having made changes.

The whole question of "following" a religion is not one I have even discussed, so I don't know where you get that I "just said that the followers of a religion define that religion".
Are you on drugs?!? - "I have tended to use the terms Church and religion interchageably, but my meaning is the same. In my view, religions are constructed by people." http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 0#p1663069

Even you had to admit this early.
What does that even mean?
Oh ffs, do I have to explain elementary English to you now?
Stop being so childish. First, I did not "admit this". Second, what are you talking about, "early"???? It's five o'clock in the afternoon. What time do you get out of bed?
EARLIER, dipshit.
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Re: Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:05 pm

Exi5tentialist wrote:
eRv wrote:Fuck off. There's a number of examples of it on the last three pages, lying cunt.
There are NONE on the last three pages.
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 0#p1663065 - I had to ask this a second time to get you to answer it, because YOU IGNORED IT THE FIRST TIME.
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 5#p1663078
What does that make you?
Right.
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Re: Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:06 pm

Please read will you:
However, in 2015, the Church of Scotland's GA voted in favour of recommending that gay ministers be able to enter into same-sex marriages, and the issue will be finalised in 2016.[24][25] On May 21, 2016, the GA voted in favour of the approval for gay and lesbian ministers to enter into same-sex marriages.[26]
I dont support any religion but making false statements has to be corrected.
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Re: Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:08 pm

Exi5tentialist wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Exi5tentialist wrote: Thanks, but the Church of Scotland does not allow equal marriage. I don't know about the others. The MCC definitely does allow it.
It is not homophobic which is what we are on about:
Human sexuality

There is a division in the Church of Scotland on how the issues surrounding homosexuality should be addressed. While the church has traditionally adopted a "hate the sin but love the sinner" approach, in recent years some within the church, including official bodies and congregations, have pushed for LGBT people to be fully welcomed and affirmed. This division of approach is illustrated by opposition to an attempt to install as minister an openly homosexual man who intends to live with his partner once appointed to his post.[16] In a landmark decision, the General Assembly (GA) voted on 23 May 2009 by 326 to 267 to ratify the appointment of the Reverend Scott Rennie, the Kirk's first openly "practising" homosexual minister. The decision was reached on the basis the presbytery had followed the correct procedure. Rennie had won the overwhelming support of his prospective church members at Queen's Cross, Aberdeen, but his appointment was in some doubt until extensive debate and this vote by the commissioners to the assembly. The GA later agreed upon a moratorium on the appointment of further "practising" homosexuals until after a special commission has reported on the matter.[17] (See: Ordination of homosexuals)

As a result of these developments, a new grouping of congregations within the church was begun "to declare their clear commitment to historic Christian orthodoxy", known as the Fellowship of Confessing Churches.[18] In May 2011, the GA of the Church of Scotland voted to appoint a theological commission, with a view to fully investigating the matter, reporting to the General Assembly of 2013. Meanwhile, openly homosexual ministers ordained before 2009 would be allowed to keep their posts without fear of sanction.[19] On 20 May 2013, the GA voted in favour of allowing gay ministers.[20] It was reported that seceding congregations had a combined annual income of £1 million.[21] Since 2008, 25 out of 808 (3%) ministers had left the over the issue.[22]

The church opposed proposals for same-sex marriage, stating that "The government's proposal fundamentally changes marriage as it is understood in our country and our culture – that it is a relationship between one man and one woman."[23] However, in 2015, the Church of Scotland's GA voted in favour of recommending that gay ministers be able to enter into same-sex marriages, and the issue will be finalised in 2016.[24][25] On May 21, 2016, the GA voted in favour of the approval for gay and lesbian ministers to enter into same-sex marriages.[26]

Regarding transgender issues, many congregations and clergy within the denomination affirm the full inclusion of transgender and other LGBTI people within the church through Affirmation Scotland.[27][28]
So does the Church of Scotland officiate its own gay marriage services or not? If not, it's homophobic. Whose side are you on here?
:fp: If there are opposing views in a Church, then they aren't a monolithic entity. This is YET ANOTHER case of you having a confused argument. If Islam can't be labelled as monolithic, neither can the Church of Scotland.
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Re: Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

Post by Hermit » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:29 pm

Exi5tentialist wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Exi5tentialist wrote:Where have I said that Islam is not a religion?
You did not. I misremembered and stand corrected.

However, you did say on the one hand that
Exi5tentialist wrote:There is no one thing called Islam. There are thousands of versions of it, millions.
and then speak of the C of E as if it were one thing, to wit
Exi5tentialist wrote:The C of E ... is a homophobic religion.
on the other. Surely you are aware that there are a number of Bishops in the C of E that have admitted to being gay and remained in their respective offices? Among them are Archbishop of York, David Hope, Mervyn Stockwood, the Bishop of Southwark, (who even went so far as blessing a homosexual relationship,) and the Bishop of Edmonton, Peter Wheatley, who has been living openly with his partner for years. In 2003 Jeffrey John was chosen to become the Bishop of Reading. Some conservatives kicked up a stink about the fact that he had been in a relationship with another male priest for many years. Not a problem, that. John was appointed Dean of St Albans instead. In criticising Anglicanism for its homophobia, you generalise to all Anglicans. This mirrors what you said one should not do. Let me remind you.
Exi5tentialist wrote:Some muslims are misogynist right-wingers. In "criticism islam for its misogyny", you generalise to all muslims. You would not do this to any other minority.
A clear case of "Do as I say, not as I do."

While I see no religion as monolithic, I do regard some of their undercurrents to be general trends. So, yes, we can say that Islam and Christianity, splintered as they both are and despite exceptions to the contrary, possess very strong streaks of homophobia and more expansively, sexism. I dare say that both streaks are less pronounced among atheists while allowing that atheism is not a monolithic entity either and that there are homophobes and sexists among its members as well.
The Church of England has homophobic policies. Gay men are not allowed to marry each other in the C of E. Being allowed to have same-gender relationships is not equality when you are not allowed to marry as heterosexuals are. That is a homophobic policy. I have not criticised Anglicanism, I criticised the Church of England. You are telling me I should not do somehting I have not done. You say I have been hypocritical, but you have not demonstrated where, in fact you have actually told an untruth about me "criticising Anglicanism". I do not know whether you have told this untruth deliberately or not, either way it misrepresents me. Given that you misremembered one thing I said, I am sorry to say I wonder if you are creating a false view of what I am saying because it suits your hitherto unchallenged prejudices, which you are having trouble defending.

And frankly I do not have so much of a problme with saying that "Islam and Christianity possess very strong streaks of homophobia". What I object to is the way people take a statement like that and turn it into "islam and Christianity are homophobic". That is just wrong and it should be challenged, in fact I see it as being the same failing as occurs when people stereotype all gay people or all women. Apart from anything else it does not allow for change, and change is the one thing that is needed where religions are being used for oppressive reasons.
For someone who uses the terms Church and religion interchangeably you have a nerve to make an issue of the distinction between Anglicanism and the Church of England, or for that matter a distinction between Islam and Christianity possess very strong streaks of homophobia and Islam and Christianity are homophobic. It's not as though distinctions cannot be important, but in terms of what I am getting at, these particular ones are not germane.

Of course I expect you to vehemently disagree with me on this. I put that down to that bee in your bonnet about racism. Having put it to you once or thrice now that I can remark on the homophobia, racism or whatever inherent in Islam without as much as a hint to race in the back in my mind or otherwise implicitly or explicitly inferred, and you not adjusting your view on such statements accordingly, my expectation of this discussion making some useful progress has just about completely disappeared. So I'll just leave you to fuck around with rEv, who seems to live on telling people they are liars, morons, using too many non sequiturs and having explained "it" so many times already. It's a beautiful example of co-dependence. Both of you get to rant and rave in your respective styles and go to bed with the feeling of having done some work that was hard but necessary.

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Re: Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

Post by Exi5tentialist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:45 pm

Hermit wrote:For someone who uses the terms Church and religion interchangeably you have a nerve to make an issue of the distinction between Anglicanism and the Church of England, or for that matter a distinction between Islam and Christianity possess very strong streaks of homophobia and Islam and Christianity are homophobic.
Well, what can I say? I explained how I used one pair of words interchangeably in one post so therefore I have a nerve not accepting every substitution you require me to. That's a bit of a childish accusation isn't it?

People are dead and you just want to play word games, all because of your need to generalise about Islam. It doesn't wash.

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Re: Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

Post by Exi5tentialist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:49 pm

eRv wrote:
Exi5tentialist wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Exi5tentialist wrote: Thanks, but the Church of Scotland does not allow equal marriage. I don't know about the others. The MCC definitely does allow it.
It is not homophobic which is what we are on about:
Human sexuality

There is a division in the Church of Scotland on how the issues surrounding homosexuality should be addressed. While the church has traditionally adopted a "hate the sin but love the sinner" approach, in recent years some within the church, including official bodies and congregations, have pushed for LGBT people to be fully welcomed and affirmed. This division of approach is illustrated by opposition to an attempt to install as minister an openly homosexual man who intends to live with his partner once appointed to his post.[16] In a landmark decision, the General Assembly (GA) voted on 23 May 2009 by 326 to 267 to ratify the appointment of the Reverend Scott Rennie, the Kirk's first openly "practising" homosexual minister. The decision was reached on the basis the presbytery had followed the correct procedure. Rennie had won the overwhelming support of his prospective church members at Queen's Cross, Aberdeen, but his appointment was in some doubt until extensive debate and this vote by the commissioners to the assembly. The GA later agreed upon a moratorium on the appointment of further "practising" homosexuals until after a special commission has reported on the matter.[17] (See: Ordination of homosexuals)

As a result of these developments, a new grouping of congregations within the church was begun "to declare their clear commitment to historic Christian orthodoxy", known as the Fellowship of Confessing Churches.[18] In May 2011, the GA of the Church of Scotland voted to appoint a theological commission, with a view to fully investigating the matter, reporting to the General Assembly of 2013. Meanwhile, openly homosexual ministers ordained before 2009 would be allowed to keep their posts without fear of sanction.[19] On 20 May 2013, the GA voted in favour of allowing gay ministers.[20] It was reported that seceding congregations had a combined annual income of £1 million.[21] Since 2008, 25 out of 808 (3%) ministers had left the over the issue.[22]

The church opposed proposals for same-sex marriage, stating that "The government's proposal fundamentally changes marriage as it is understood in our country and our culture – that it is a relationship between one man and one woman."[23] However, in 2015, the Church of Scotland's GA voted in favour of recommending that gay ministers be able to enter into same-sex marriages, and the issue will be finalised in 2016.[24][25] On May 21, 2016, the GA voted in favour of the approval for gay and lesbian ministers to enter into same-sex marriages.[26]

Regarding transgender issues, many congregations and clergy within the denomination affirm the full inclusion of transgender and other LGBTI people within the church through Affirmation Scotland.[27][28]
So does the Church of Scotland officiate its own gay marriage services or not? If not, it's homophobic. Whose side are you on here?
:fp: If there are opposing views in a Church, then they aren't a monolithic entity. This is YET ANOTHER case of you having a confused argument. If Islam can't be labelled as monolithic, neither can the Church of Scotland.
Well I think it's homophobic for an organisation to have a policy against gay marriage. Don't you?

Islam isn't an organisation, and it doesn't have any policies common to the whole of Islam. But the church of Scotland does have policies that are common to the whole of the church of Scotland.

I don't understand your anger. Except if you know I'm right, and you don't like being wrong. That's probably it.

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Re: Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:51 pm

Exi5tentialist wrote:
Hermit wrote:For someone who uses the terms Church and religion interchangeably you have a nerve to make an issue of the distinction between Anglicanism and the Church of England, or for that matter a distinction between Islam and Christianity possess very strong streaks of homophobia and Islam and Christianity are homophobic.
Well, what can I say? I explained how I used one pair of words interchangeably in one post so therefore I have a nerve not accepting every substitution you require me to. That's a bit of a childish accusation isn't it?

People are dead and you just want to play word games, all because of your need to generalise about Islam. It doesn't wash.
Why would he have a need to generalise about Islam? Is it because you automatically label anyone who doesn't agree with you on the subject of Islam a racist/islamophobic, regardless of whether they have said anything specifically about Islam being responsible for xyz? :ask:
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