Radical Leftist Disillusioned By Leftist Culture

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Radical Leftist Disillusioned By Leftist Culture

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:58 am

Folks, do the world a favour…stop with the safe spaces and trigger warnings, and get serious about changing the world. It is not always going to be fun and pleasant. We are not always going to feel liberated. It is going to hurt. It is going to scare the shit out of us at times. But if the struggle is worth it to you, if activism is not just a trendy thing for you to be involved with so you can convince yourself that you’re not complacent in injustices, then you will step out of your comfort zone and finally understand that comfort is in itself a sign of the power and privilege you wish to challenge.
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Some counter-arguments in the comments section.
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Re: Radical Leftist Disillusioned By Leftist Culture

Post by rachelbean » Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:39 am

Yeah, it's a weird time for the left. I always considered myself a progressive and a leftist but I'm really uncomfortable by the general atmosphere now and the instance on what each person now has to do to be considered a "real ally", etc.

There are real discussions to be had around these things. For instance I am generally against the idea of trigger warnings, but I'm willing to listen to people's point of view and I can have compassion for people with PTSD and other conditions that advocate for them. What I'm not okay with is being made to feel evil and bigoted for not automatically accepting every demand about how to write, speak and behave without question. :?
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Re: Radical Leftist Disillusioned By Leftist Culture

Post by Forty Two » Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:59 pm

rachelbean wrote:Yeah, it's a weird time for the left. I always considered myself a progressive and a leftist but I'm really uncomfortable by the general atmosphere now and the instance on what each person now has to do to be considered a "real ally", etc.

There are real discussions to be had around these things. For instance I am generally against the idea of trigger warnings, but I'm willing to listen to people's point of view and I can have compassion for people with PTSD and other conditions that advocate for them. What I'm not okay with is being made to feel evil and bigoted for not automatically accepting every demand about how to write, speak and behave without question. :?
And, that's one of the things with these "trigger warnings." PTSD is a serious thing. It is a very serious psychological condition. It is not, however, the self-diagnosed feelings of a student who thinks he shouldn't have to read A Streetcar Named Desire because Stanley Kowalski is "triggering."

If a student comes in and sees the teacher, pointing out that he or she is a diagnosed sufferer of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and there are certain things that are trouble for him or her, then some accommodation might be appropriate. Or, maybe the PTSD prevents the student from fulfilling the course requirements, in which case the student can't take or pass the course. That sucks, but a disability doesn't mean you don't have to meet minimum requirements in life. People in wheelchairs can't become firefighters. People with war related PTSD might be prevented from taking a course focusing on battles and warfare.

Also, it's not so much the goals that are always the problem. Many generally liberal people want to be liberal with their kindness, too, and many don't want to hurt people's feelings and such. However, when the means used by the Progressive Left include disrupting peaceful meetings, assaulting people, violating the rights of press and media to cover public events, splashing people with fake blood, pulling fire alarms to empty buildings in which meetings are being held, calling people's employers in concerted efforts to get them fired because they express opposing views, or filing bullshit harassment complaints because someone holds a differing view and disrupts three years of a person's life based on fabricated nonsense (See e.g. Stephanie Guthrie's massive web of lies against Gregory Elliott in Canada), and petitions to disinvite comedians for politically incorrect commentary, or the like.

The tactics used are the tactics of the establishment. It's no different than when "the right" went after guys like Bertrand Russell and suspected Communists back in the day. It's just a different orthodoxy they seek to enforce. It's based on the same self-righteous attitude, though. If you oppose them, you are a monster. You're in favor of misogyny and hate -- just like opposing those who banned Bertrand Russell were in favor of destroying the family, polygamous marriage and destruction of all morality.

It's the same shit upside down.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Radical Leftist Disillusioned By Leftist Culture

Post by laklak » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:16 pm

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Radical Leftist Disillusioned By Leftist Culture

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:14 am

PTSD is a serious issue that needs to be worked around. But it's hard not to get the feeling that a lot of this triggering shit is people who have traditionally been unheard in society (for whatever reason) co-opting it for their own empowerment. That is, there's a psychological pathology going on here in that people whose views have been largely ignored traditionally are acting out against that perceived injustice. Not that I'd even touch that with a ten foot pole in regards to some of my activist friends. I just nod politely when they start up with this shit... :nervous:
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Re: Radical Leftist Disillusioned By Leftist Culture

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:16 am

Safe spaces are a different concept. I've got no problem with safe spaces at all, as long as there are still some "unsafe spaces" in which ideas can be challenged more robustly by those of us who don't feel oppressed by certain concepts.
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Re: Radical Leftist Disillusioned By Leftist Culture

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:19 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:PTSD is a serious issue that needs to be worked around. But it's hard not to get the feeling that a lot of this triggering shit is people who have traditionally been unheard in society (for whatever reason) co-opting it for their own empowerment. That is, there's a psychological pathology going on here in that people whose views have been largely ignored traditionally are acting out against that perceived injustice. Not that I'd even touch that with a ten foot pole in regards to some of my activist friends. I just nod politely when they start up with this shit... :nervous:
Perhaps, but couple that "traditionally unheard in society" argument with an ideology with a plank that says that people who can claim membership in some sort of protected group not only get protection from discrimination, but also get the privilege to discriminate, harass, and silence others and to speak first (be high up on the "stack"), etc., and have that be "not sexist" or "not racist" because "sexism and racism = prejudice plus power" - so, like Bahar Mustafa, fmr. Diversity Director at a British College stated and wrote publicly, and with zero irony, "I, as a minority woman of color, cannot be racist or sexist" while explaining how her express and deliberate discrimination based on sex and race was not sexism or racism and not even improper.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Radical Leftist Disillusioned By Leftist Culture

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:25 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:Safe spaces are a different concept. I've got no problem with safe spaces at all, as long as there are still some "unsafe spaces" in which ideas can be challenged more robustly by those of us who don't feel oppressed by certain concepts.
Perhaps until this is given some thought, it would make sense.

There are unlimited "safe spaces" in this world, whether in general life or on college campuses. Go to your dorm room and tell everyone else to stay out. Reserve a conference room in a building or a library. Rent space here or there. Buy a house or building. Or, do anything else within private property that you like. Form a club any kind and exclude others.

Public places, however, cannot be coopted and declared "safe spaces" for some. if a group decides to take over a library and exclude black people, or white people, that is not the creation of a safe space. That's a crime.

And, calling it "safe spaces" in this context is a joke. Being exposed in a public place to "ideas which challenge robustly" is not a lack of safety.

There is a public building in my city that go to regularly. Out front, on the sidewalk there are always a series of people I walk by. There are some apparently poor people begging for money. There are other apparently poor people making little flowers and other crafts looking for money and they'll give you their little "corn husk rose" in return. There are political persons making speeches from time to time declaring this or that policy to be good or bad, or stumping for a particular politician. And, then there is my least favorite of all, the nutjob evangelical preachers with fucking bullhorns talking about Jesus and telling everyone to convert and be saved or be left damned for all eternity.

I hate having to hear all that shit while waiting in a security line to get in a building. It sucks. But, you know what, it ain't my sidewalk. It ain't my "safe space." So, I could, if I were a lunatic, get my own soapbox and present my counterarguments, but I choose not to. I don't however, have a right to "feel safe" from these ideas that I find distasteful.

There is nothing good about silencing these people in the name of safe spaces. Nothing. If the State does that, then the State creates an orthodoxy. These people can express their views because the political establishment thinks that their views aren't triggering or unsafe. Other people, however, have to shut their holes and go to designated unsafe spaces because their views are "challenging" and -- gasp - offensive.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Radical Leftist Disillusioned By Leftist Culture

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:04 am

Forty Two wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:PTSD is a serious issue that needs to be worked around. But it's hard not to get the feeling that a lot of this triggering shit is people who have traditionally been unheard in society (for whatever reason) co-opting it for their own empowerment. That is, there's a psychological pathology going on here in that people whose views have been largely ignored traditionally are acting out against that perceived injustice. Not that I'd even touch that with a ten foot pole in regards to some of my activist friends. I just nod politely when they start up with this shit... :nervous:
Perhaps, but couple that "traditionally unheard in society" argument with an ideology with a plank that says that people who can claim membership in some sort of protected group not only get protection from discrimination, but also get the privilege to discriminate, harass, and silence others and to speak first (be high up on the "stack"), etc., and have that be "not sexist" or "not racist" because "sexism and racism = prejudice plus power" - so, like Bahar Mustafa, fmr. Diversity Director at a British College stated and wrote publicly, and with zero irony, "I, as a minority woman of color, cannot be racist or sexist" while explaining how her express and deliberate discrimination based on sex and race was not sexism or racism and not even improper.
I think this is just part of the same pathology, not an ideology.
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Re: Radical Leftist Disillusioned By Leftist Culture

Post by JimC » Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:37 am

However, those who make such statements would claim it as a righteous ideology rather than their personal pathology, I suspect. ;)

I agree with Forty Two that the problems start when groups start demanding that their own take of correct behaviour be imposed willy-nilly on others. As a society, we of course agree that some human behaviours must be sanctioned - that's why we have a legal system. But outside those agreed upon laws and associated sanctions, the default position should be to allow individuals the freedom we would want for ourselves...

Of course, different societies will have different views on what is to be allowed, and what is to be sanctioned - gun ownership laws being a good example...
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Re: Radical Leftist Disillusioned By Leftist Culture

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:50 am

JimC wrote:However, those who make such statements would claim it as a righteous ideology rather than their personal pathology, I suspect. ;)
Definitely. But it doesn't change what it likely is - a pathology from being ignored for most of their lives.
I agree with Forty Two that the problems start when groups start demanding that their own take of correct behaviour be imposed willy-nilly on others. As a society, we of course agree that some human behaviours must be sanctioned - that's why we have a legal system. But outside those agreed upon laws and associated sanctions, the default position should be to allow individuals the freedom we would want for ourselves...
The thing is, it's not a real problem. It's just hyperbole from the likes of coito and dave dodo. Look at how well A+ went. That's how all these groups end up. They are no threat to the rest of society.
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Re: Radical Leftist Disillusioned By Leftist Culture

Post by JimC » Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:54 am

They are not an existential threat to the whole of society, but they could be a real annoyance in certain places and times, where their attempts to control others should be opposed.
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Re: Radical Leftist Disillusioned By Leftist Culture

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:00 am

Meh. We've got much bigger and much more numerous things to worry about on this planet.
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Re: Radical Leftist Disillusioned By Leftist Culture

Post by laklak » Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:30 am

What about a safe space for Klan members? Poor bastards can't even wear their ceremonial robes without some namby-pamby lefty shouting about racism. Exalted Cyclops are people too!
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Re: Radical Leftist Disillusioned By Leftist Culture

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:25 am

They had a safe space for about 200 years up to the 50's.
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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