Free Will.

[mistermack]

Do you think you have a free will? I don't.

I think you have a very restricted freedom of will. Mostly, we do and think things that have been put in our heads by others. Theoretically, we are free to rebel, and think and act with full freedom. But in practice, we aren't.
We are of course completely ruled by our brains. And the condition of our brain is beyond our control. Get a head injury, or depressive illness, or any other mental problem, and your "free" will goes out of the window.
And what you think is continually fed into you by others.
In modern times, it's the press, and tv companies, under "guidance" from governments and owners.
When you're young and impressionable, it's teachers etc who put the pressure on, telling you how and what to think.
And of course, the various religions stuffing their rubbish into your brain from an early age.

Sure, you're "free" to reject it all. But by the time they've finished with you, very few people do go their own way.

So out of 100, I'd say, it's free will about 5, programming 95, out of 100.

That's how free we really are.

[tuco]

"Free will" brought me to RD forum years ago in the first place. Part one, two, three .. some fascinating material was posted there then. I do not even know what exactly it is "free will" so .. seems like the brain has veto but sometimes it seems it does not. So perhaps it depends, on situation, individual case?

[mistermack]

I think people have free will in theory, but not in practice.
Did the world's Muslims freely choose Islam? No, of course they didn't.
Do Christians choose Christianity? Hardly ever. They will TELL you that they made their own choices, but they didn't.

Am I free to be a great musician? No, because I haven't got a brain that's suitable.
Am I free to be world heavyweight champion? No, too puny.
Are people free to vote whichever way they want? Yes, but they are being constantly "guided" in the right direction by the press and the governments.

What you think of as decisions you made, are really made for you, over years and years, so that in the end, you choose what they want you to choose.

[tuco]

Every time I open fridge and pick yoghurt over orange I ask myself the very question. I am content with being agnostic here. Essentially whether my choice is product of free will or not has no bearing on reality. The universe as we know it will function regardless of my belief. What could it have influence over is lets say judging peoples actions in term of responsibilities for example.

[laklak]

I told the cop I couldn't help myself, but he didn't believe me. Come to think of it he probably didn't have free will either.

[Rum]

I have free will enough not to post in this thread...er...

[JimC]

Both consciousness itself and free will may well be fictions, but they are very useful ones. Acting as if you are a free agent making choices on what you do in the world has survival value, or at least it would in the hunter-gatherer environment.

[mistermack]

Both consciousness itself and free will may well be fictions, but they are very useful ones. Acting as if you are a free agent making choices on what you do in the world has survival value, or at least it would in the hunter-gatherer environment.

Yes. But that's an interesting point.
Does having a choice, mean that you have a free will? Obviously, you aren't claiming that, but a lot of people would.
If a jury is given a choice between guilty of murder, and guilty of manslaughter, they can't exercise their free will. So the quality and freedom of the choices on offer come into it.

If I'm being tortured, I have a choice, to talk, or not to talk. It's a theoretical choice. In the real world, I have no choice. I'm going to not just talk, but bore the ears off them, with so much talk.

Is it the same with a pedophile? We all think that they make a choice to abuse kids, but with what's in their brains, maybe they are compelled to do it ? (I'd still cut their balls off though).

In fact, we sort of acknowledge that they don't really have a choice, in some cases, by offering them chemical castration or some sort of shit like that.
So choice isn't really a yes or no thing, you really have degrees of choice, depending on what's in your head.
It's easy for me not to abuse kids. It's much harder for a pedophile.

As far as religion goes, it should be much more of a sin for me to abuse kids, than for pedophiles to do so. And of course, Catholic priests are not sinning at all.
Or if they are, they can just confess to themselves and start again with a clean slate.

[tuco]

I am not sure about that point, survival value, or I do not understand it. It would basically mean that humans, the only(?) animals with mentioned capabilities, have better survival chance. I do not think it follows or rather it works like that. Brain indeed gives humans amazing capabilities, simulate, postpone needs, process info etc but the question is when humans even started to ponder about such things are free will as I do not think its given to ponder about it. What is given is "making choices", which can surely be executed without free will and consciousness.

[rainbow]

We are all controlled by the alien lizard overlords.

[Rum]

An ant makes a choices when it 'smells' a pheromone and then follows a trail. One can't be certain of course but I suspect it isn't a conscious choice. We make choices all the time, but these seem to me to be on a continuum. We make an unconscious choice when we respond automatically to a car jus about to hit us as we cross the road and jump back. We make an unconscious choice (mostly) when we stop at a red pedestrian light for it to turn green. We make a conscious choice (usually) when we make the decision to cross the road despite the light being red. Not sure that's the best example but it is a reasonable one and indicates gradations of decision making. Free will? Well you can't stop an automatic response like jumping back from danger. But you are free to decide to cross against a red light.

The historical arguments about this subject entailed the idea of predeterminism of course and whether god planned every event in everyone's lives on not. That kind of muddied the water I think.

[pErvinalia]

The question of free will is one of a deterministic universe (at the macro scale). If all outcomes are predetermined by inviolate physical laws, then there is no such thing as free will. To believe in free will you have to believe in a non-physical soul. Good luck with that.

[Hermit]

The question of free will is one of a deterministic universe (at the macro scale). If all outcomes are predetermined by inviolate physical laws, then there is no such thing as free will. To believe in free will you have to believe in a non-physical soul. Good luck with that.

This is where idiots come in, saying: "Ahaaaaaa! Got you there!!!!1!!1!!. Quantum physics proves the universe is not deterministic! Hah!!!"

[JimC]

The question of free will is one of a deterministic universe (at the macro scale). If all outcomes are predetermined by inviolate physical laws, then there is no such thing as free will. To believe in free will you have to believe in a non-physical soul. Good luck with that.

This is where idiots come in, saying: "Ahaaaaaa! Got you there!!!!1!!1!!. Quantum physics proves the universe is not deterministic! Hah!!!"

Don't need quantum physics. Chaos theory is enough to ensure that the evolution of most physical systems has sufficient indeterminacy to avoid the old "clockwork universe" rigid model.

[Hermit]

The question of free will is one of a deterministic universe (at the macro scale). If all outcomes are predetermined by inviolate physical laws, then there is no such thing as free will. To believe in free will you have to believe in a non-physical soul. Good luck with that.

This is where idiots come in, saying: "Ahaaaaaa! Got you there!!!!1!!1!!. Quantum physics proves the universe is not deterministic! Hah!!!"

Don't need quantum physics. Chaos theory is enough to ensure that the evolution of most physical systems has sufficient indeterminacy to avoid the old "clockwork universe" rigid model.

How does chaos theory illustrate real world indeterminacy? Isn't it totally equation driven? The way I see it is that it demonstrates how even the smallest of inputs can have huge, unforeseen repercussions, but unforeseen is not synonymous with unforeseeable.