VW. Did they REALLY cheat the test?

[mistermack]

I don't think they did.

They are eating humble pie, but I think that's a big mistake.

These tests were standardised. The publicised figures are for emissions under fixed conditions.
They are NOT a figure for general road use.

It all depends who actually prescribed the test conditions. If it was VW, then I suppose they are cheats.
If it was the US government, then all VW have done, is ensure that their cars produce minimum emissions under the specified conditions.

That's not cheating. Their cars DID produce those emissions, under those conditions.
It's only cheating, if they claimed that the cars would do the same under average road conditions, which I don't believe that they ever did. In fact, it was common knowledge that no cars match those test requirements in normal road use.

It's like cramming for an exam. Is that cheating?
Even though you could never recall all that knowledge in day-to-day life, on the day of the exam you can. But nobody says that you deceived the exam board.

[Hermit]

Apparently the computers in Volkswagens can detect when they get attached to diagnostic equipment that measures pollutant levels in the exhaust and then adjust the fuel mix to minimise the amount. When the equipment gets disconnected the VW's computers switch back to normal mode.

Now examiners are checking cars of other makers to see if they use a similar trick. It won't surprise me if they discover more offenders.

[mistermack]

Apparently the computers in Volkswagens can detect when they get attached to diagnostic equipment that measures pollutant levels in the exhaust and then adjust the fuel mix to minimise the amount. When the equipment gets disconnected the VW's computers switch back to normal mode.

Now examiners are checking cars of other makers to see if they use a similar trick. It won't surprise me if they discover more offenders.

That's how it was reported, but I don't think it's quite as clear-cut as that.
The test is done at a specific set of parameters, ie, revs, gear, load, ambient temperature etc etc.
And I think that's what the software is set for. So, when all of the parameters match, the injection computer sets itself for lowest emissions. Well, of course it does. Anyone is going to do the same.
If you know the set conditions of the test, you design for those conditions.

And of course, on the road, if all of those parameters happen, then it will do the same. So the test is reflecting one genuine set of road conditions. Rare maybe, but genuine just the same.

I think this is as much the fault of the regulators, as of the manufacturers. They made the test far too specific.
If they worded the requirement to be that a car in good condition has to produce x emissions in average road use, within a + or - factor, the manufacturers would have had to work towards that.
They wouldn't have been able to target such specific conditions.

[Rum]

Yeah, sure, VW made a doh. You really think all this fuss is about a misunderstanding? The device they used was called a 'defeat' device. The head of the company has quit and lawyers are lining up around the block.

[Hermit]

Apparently the computers in Volkswagens can detect when they get attached to diagnostic equipment that measures pollutant levels in the exhaust and then adjust the fuel mix to minimise the amount. When the equipment gets disconnected the VW's computers switch back to normal mode.

Now examiners are checking cars of other makers to see if they use a similar trick. It won't surprise me if they discover more offenders.

That's how it was reported, but I don't think it's quite as clear-cut as that.
The test is done at a specific set of parameters, ie, revs, gear, load, ambient temperature etc etc.
And I think that's what the software is set for. So, when all of the parameters match, the injection computer sets itself for lowest emissions.

That is not just a possibility. It is in fact exactly what several motorbike manufacturers do. They design the computer management system to minimise pollution emissions in the rev range at which they know tests are typically done. Unfortunately that shows up in a discontinuity of the torque output and therefore performance in that range, but it cannot be regarded as actually cheating.



I have yet to see a statement by Volkswagen that it likewise simply took advantage of such knowledge and merely adjusted engine performance accordingly, so no, I don't think your scenario flies in this case.

[mistermack]

I think it depends on the "detection" method that it's alleged that they used.
If they detect the test EQUIPMENT, then it's clearly cheating. If they detect the test CONDITIONS, and react, then I would say it's not. It's matching your product to a stupid test regime.

The fact that VW management have completely and utterly collapsed, and have described it as cheating, merely reflects a decision taken high up, that they are going to lose, if they fight it.
The reason for that might be inside knowledge, that the USA administration have told them that they will be wasting their time, and would be better off doing an under-the-counter deal. Or, it might be that they really do agree that they were cheating.
Without the inside knowledge, you can't really give a definitive answer.

If I was in charge of VW, I would immediately retract the admission, and put the blame back on the test regime.
I would also be buying new cars, one of every diesel on sale in the US, and would pay for extensive independent testing of every single one, so that I could publish how VW cars compare to Chrysler, Ford, Toyota, Honda etc etc in real life driving.

I'd be willing to bet that VWs are somewhere near the best, and nowhere near the worst emitters.

[Hermit]

The fact that VW management have completely and utterly collapsed, and have described it as cheating, merely reflects a decision taken high up, that they are going to lose, if they fight it.

To me the lack of fight indicates that Volkswagen has been well and truly, indisputably and indubitably caught cheating.

[klr]

It was cheating, pure and simple. It's interesting that the head honcho has taken the hit, and not some lower-level manager, let alone the programmers and technicians who had to be in on the scam.

[NineBerry]

It was cheating, pure and simple. It's interesting that the head honcho has taken the hit, and not some lower-level manager, let alone the programmers and technicians who had to be in on the scam.

You don't want to punish German engineers for "just following orders", do you?

[mistermack]

The fact that VW management have completely and utterly collapsed, and have described it as cheating, merely reflects a decision taken high up, that they are going to lose, if they fight it.

To me the lack of fight indicates that Volkswagen has been well and truly, indisputably and indubitably caught cheating.

Well, your guess might be right. Or my guess might be right.
Or it could be somewhere in the middle.
Once the decision has been taken not to fight, you have to go down the road of absolute contrition. Nothing else will do.
The people who set up the software might have thought that they were doing nothing actually illegal.
After all, the cars DID pass the test.
It seems like an open secret that the test was never matched in real life conditions, by any manufacturers.
So what VW did is not particularly different. Maybe a matter of degree. That's all. If that. We'll have to wait to see.

[jamest]

You have to be stupid if you think that you can get away with this sort of scam on a large scale. Why would they have done it? Why not simply design the engines to properly comply with the regulations? This is VW of Germany, for heaven's sake. I just don't get it.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

They are blaming it on a "small group of people" - BULLSHIT! A handful will carry the blame but be well rewarded for their silence. As it is with Murdoch, so it is with VW.

Big Business: Doing anything it can get away with since 1378.

[Tero]

drug company CEO's go to jail for deliberately faking data given to the FDA.
http://www.newsweek.com/2015/04/24/insi ... 22665.html

[Svartalf]

They are blaming it on a "small group of people" - BULLSHIT! A handful will carry the blame but be well rewarded for their silence. As it is with Murdoch, so it is with VW.

Big Business: Doing anything it can get away with since 1378.

Is 1378 a really important date or did you just drag a number outta your arse?

[Rum]

They are blaming it on a "small group of people" - BULLSHIT! A handful will carry the blame but be well rewarded for their silence. As it is with Murdoch, so it is with VW.

Big Business: Doing anything it can get away with since 1378.

I knew it! Murdoch did it!!