Freee market useless on its own

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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Seth » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:47 pm

mistermack wrote:Personally, I like government.
I like it a lot.
And I like the kind that people get to choose every four or five years.

The less government interferes, the more we get ripped off.
You're kidding, right? Government is, and has always been the biggest rip-off in all of recorded history.
They freed up the markets before the last crash. Everyone was arguing for less government interference.
And the result was the biggest rip-off in decades.
How so? Did anyone force you to invest in the stock markets? Nope. You CHOSE to invest didn't you? And when you CHOSE to invest, did you make yourself aware of the risks of doing so? I'm betting you didn't, or did a slipshod job of it and lost a packet because you invested thinking that you were automatically going to make money.

The difference between the markets and government is that you get to choose to enter the markets, and the rule is caveat emptor, whereas when the taxman cometh to seize the fruits of your labor so that some politician can spend it on pork-barrel projects to win votes, you'd damned well better pay up or they will bring out the machine guns and jackboots.

Right wingers always argue for less intervention. It goes down well with the more simple-minded voters.
But every time they "free up" the markets, you get abuse.
You only get abuse if you play the markets.

And then they have to bring back government oversight. And then the whole cycle begins again.
That's because of whiners who fail to understand that the stock market is gambling, plain and simple, just like putting it all on "red" on the wheel of fortune. I say fuck all y'all who played in the market and got wiped out. You got what you had coming.
Personally, I think government should ban short term bonuses to executives in all businesses.
Only allow it, if you actually OWN the business, without debts.
Any bonuses should be only payable after a ten year delay, conditional on the financial health of the business.
Well, fortunately that's not up to you or the government, it's up to the investors in the business to determine. CEOs make big money because they make big money for investors and the investors choose, annually, to pay them to keep doing so. If you don't like that system, then don't invest.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Seth » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:59 am

rainbow wrote:
Ian wrote:Technology progresses fastest when both the public and private sectors are able to develop with little interference. They benefit each other. Time and time again, private industry piggybacks on top of something created by a government project with solely military or scientific goals in mind. And those public developers benefit by making use of the fast, competitive R&D done within the private sector for profit goals.

To say one side is simply better than the other is to miss the point. Both sides do certain things that would never be done by the other. They're a yin/yang relationship.
Correct. The Genome Project is an example.
No private enterprise would take on the cost of this and share the information. Many private enterprises are building on this information.

I find it difficult to believe that anyone can't see this.
Nonsense. The following is from the Wiki page.
Applications and proposed benefits

The sequencing of the human genome holds benefits for many fields, from molecular medicine to human evolution. The Human Genome Project, through its sequencing of the DNA, can help us understand diseases including: genotyping of specific viruses to direct appropriate treatment; identification of mutations linked to different forms of cancer; the design of medication and more accurate prediction of their effects; advancement in forensic applied sciences; biofuels and other energy applications; agriculture, animal husbandry, bioprocessing; risk assessment; bioarcheology, anthropology and evolution. Another proposed benefit is the commercial development of genomics research related to DNA based products, a multibillion dollar industry.
The last sentence is all you need to read to know that private funding would have become available as the demand for DNA based products emerged. It didn't even start out as a government project, and the government agency that supported it had nothing whatever to do with DNA sequencing, it was the Energy Department misusing its budget against the advice of the agency that WAS in charge of such things, the NIH.

Billions of taxpayer dollars were spent that didn't need to be spent and would have been invested by all of the various private commercial interests in due time.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by rainbow » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:09 am

Seth wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Ian wrote:Technology progresses fastest when both the public and private sectors are able to develop with little interference. They benefit each other. Time and time again, private industry piggybacks on top of something created by a government project with solely military or scientific goals in mind. And those public developers benefit by making use of the fast, competitive R&D done within the private sector for profit goals.

To say one side is simply better than the other is to miss the point. Both sides do certain things that would never be done by the other. They're a yin/yang relationship.
Correct. The Genome Project is an example.
No private enterprise would take on the cost of this and share the information. Many private enterprises are building on this information.

I find it difficult to believe that anyone can't see this.
Nonsense. The following is from the Wiki page.
Applications and proposed benefits

The sequencing of the human genome holds benefits for many fields, from molecular medicine to human evolution. The Human Genome Project, through its sequencing of the DNA, can help us understand diseases including: genotyping of specific viruses to direct appropriate treatment; identification of mutations linked to different forms of cancer; the design of medication and more accurate prediction of their effects; advancement in forensic applied sciences; biofuels and other energy applications; agriculture, animal husbandry, bioprocessing; risk assessment; bioarcheology, anthropology and evolution. Another proposed benefit is the commercial development of genomics research related to DNA based products, a multibillion dollar industry.
The last sentence is all you need to read to know that private funding would have become available as the demand for DNA based products emerged.
No Seth, it says exactly what I said.

The government put up the money for the original research, then shared the information with private researchers. They have found the practical applications.

Get a grip man, you are starting to look foolish.
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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Hermit » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:25 am

Starting? :think:
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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Rum » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:42 pm

Governments 'marketise' processes and services all the time. They regulate markets, set parameters and boundaries and actually control many of them pretty closely. You just have to look at examples here where nationally owned services including power, water and the railways were sold off, split up and told to compete with each other following a set of strict guidelines. Free-for-alls don't work. You end up with monopolies, just as you are getting in America now or Thugarchies, such as that in Russia.

Our 'privatised' services probably provide better value for money as a result, but if they were left to slug it out there would be one winner and that would do the public no good at all.

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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Tero » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:12 pm

This just in! Tax payers forced to support Marxist astronomy with hundreds of millions of dollars! No astronomer ever prevented a moon or meteor hitting our planet!
http://cosmoquest.org/x/blog/2012/08/a- ... astronomy/

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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Seth » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:28 am

rainbow wrote:
Seth wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Ian wrote:Technology progresses fastest when both the public and private sectors are able to develop with little interference. They benefit each other. Time and time again, private industry piggybacks on top of something created by a government project with solely military or scientific goals in mind. And those public developers benefit by making use of the fast, competitive R&D done within the private sector for profit goals.

To say one side is simply better than the other is to miss the point. Both sides do certain things that would never be done by the other. They're a yin/yang relationship.
Correct. The Genome Project is an example.
No private enterprise would take on the cost of this and share the information. Many private enterprises are building on this information.

I find it difficult to believe that anyone can't see this.
Nonsense. The following is from the Wiki page.
Applications and proposed benefits

The sequencing of the human genome holds benefits for many fields, from molecular medicine to human evolution. The Human Genome Project, through its sequencing of the DNA, can help us understand diseases including: genotyping of specific viruses to direct appropriate treatment; identification of mutations linked to different forms of cancer; the design of medication and more accurate prediction of their effects; advancement in forensic applied sciences; biofuels and other energy applications; agriculture, animal husbandry, bioprocessing; risk assessment; bioarcheology, anthropology and evolution. Another proposed benefit is the commercial development of genomics research related to DNA based products, a multibillion dollar industry.
The last sentence is all you need to read to know that private funding would have become available as the demand for DNA based products emerged.
No Seth, it says exactly what I said.

The government put up the money for the original research, then shared the information with private researchers. They have found the practical applications.

Get a grip man, you are starting to look foolish.
That's happenstance. What it says is that there was a market for genome-related information long before the project was started. Indeed, the project was hatched at a private meeting. While government funding paid for it, there's nothing to say that private money would not have emerged to pay for it when the market conditions were ripe. It most certainly would have become available once the researchers convinced the market that the investment was worth it and would return more than it cost. The fact that government jumped the gun is just a typical reaction of politicians and bureaucrats who have taxpayer money to throw about with abandon in hopes of getting their names up in lights for being the ones who "generously donated" the necessary funds...which they stole from taxpayers without asking them if they wanted to participate in the experiment.

Market forces work just fine to bring such things to fruition as the market value of the effort becomes clear. That you want other people to pay for it without asking them and often against their will is just selfish cupidity. Wait your damned turn and spend YOUR money convincing investors to fund your ideas and leave the taxpayers out of it. We've got bridges to fix and roads to repave, we don't need to be wasting billions of dollars on something that private investment capital will fully fund as soon as the profitability is proven.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Seth » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:35 am

Tero wrote:This just in! Tax payers forced to support Marxist astronomy with hundreds of millions of dollars! No astronomer ever prevented a moon or meteor hitting our planet!
http://cosmoquest.org/x/blog/2012/08/a- ... astronomy/
If you care about astronomy and space science, tell your elected government officials! If you are reading this blog, you probably realize that basic research is important. And that it costs you the price of a large coffee per month to support the NSF at current levels. For SCIENCE.
Here's a better idea, if you care about astronomy, send it a check. If you're in astronomy, go ask people to donate voluntarily. If you explain to them why they should do so and what the benefit will be to them, they are likely to contribute.

Unless, of course, you can't convince them why it matters to them because it doesn't matter to them, it only matters to you and they have bills to pay and kids to feed, in which case the government shouldn't be stealing the money from taxpayers just so that you can follow your dream to sit around looking at the stars all night long. Get a damned job doing something that needs to be done, like filling potholes or building bridges or sweeping streets.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Seth » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:45 am

Rum wrote:Governments 'marketise' processes and services all the time. They regulate markets, set parameters and boundaries and actually control many of them pretty closely.
Most of which government has absolutely no business nor constitutional authority to do in the first place. Government's ONLY legitimate function in the markets is to police them against the initiation of force or fraud, and absolutely nothing else.
You just have to look at examples here where nationally owned services including power, water and the railways were sold off, split up and told to compete with each other following a set of strict guidelines.
You just have to have a look and figure out why government decided to get into the public utility monopoly business and the awful effects doing so wrought, which is why it's now de-regulating almost everything.
Free-for-alls don't work.
Sure they do. Somebody punches above their weight and gets knocked out of the competition and that keeps going on until the best man wins.

You end up with monopolies,
Nope. Monopolies can ONLY exist if the government authorizes and supports them, and it ALWAYS turns out badly when government does so.
just as you are getting in America now


Please identify one single non-government supported and authorized monopoly in the US. Just one.
or Thugarchies, such as that in Russia.
Well, that's because the government is not doing the one thing it is supposed to do, which is police the markets against the initiation of force or fraud. The reason it doesn't do so in Russia is because the government is the big "Thugarchy" on the planet, run by the Thug-in-Chief, Vladimir Putin, who is as corrupt and evil as any politician can get. He needs to be taken out of office by someone, ASAP. Russia is not a demonstration of a lack of regulation, it's a demonstration of the effects of TOO MUCH government intervention in the markets, combined with government corruption.
Our 'privatised' services probably provide better value for money as a result, but if they were left to slug it out there would be one winner and that would do the public no good at all.
It would give the public better products at a lower price. That's how free markets work. It's government interference that drives up prices and diminishes quality, not the other way around.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Rum » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:46 am

I don't understand or agree with your term 'government's ONLY legitimate function'. This is a political value judgment - and one I don't agree with of course.

..and I didn't say 'government supported' monopoly - the large corporations in question have monopoly or near monopoly market share because the government DOESN'T intervene. The nature of freewheeling capitalism is that the biggest grow bigger and the smallest get crowed out.

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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Seth » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:15 am

Rum wrote:I don't understand or agree with your term 'government's ONLY legitimate function'. This is a political value judgment - and one I don't agree with of course.
What other legitimate function can government have except to police the markets for illegal activity? Anything else is the government trying to pick winners and losers in the marketplace, and that ALWAYS ends badly because, as Hayek shows us, government central planning never works and cannot work, it can only make inferior allocation decisions because no bureaucrat or legion of bureaucrats can possibly make accurate decisions about what the markets (consumers) want or need because the needs/wants are simply too varied and complex for any bureaucracy to manage. Free markets properly allocate resources using BILLIONS of data points EVERY SINGLE DAY. These data points are the consumer's buying preferences that are influenced only by the needs and desires of the consumer, and the markets use this information to instigate new production, limit production or cease production entirely depending on what the public tells the market it needs and wants. This complexity is simply beyond the ability of any government bureau to deal with, much less accurately predict future allocations.

..and I didn't say 'government supported' monopoly - the large corporations in question have monopoly or near monopoly market share because the government DOESN'T intervene.
I know what you said, and you're simply wrong and you're misunderstanding. The ONLY TIME a monopoly occurs is when and if the government selects a particular vendor in the marketplace, decides that it is to be the mandatory supplier, and creates laws and regulations that prohibit ANYONE ELSE from competing with that favored vendor. That's a monopoly.

In the normal course of business, the market determines winners and losers as I state above. When one or more "large corporations" seize the dominant market share, it's because (initially) they provide a superior product at a better price than anyone else. That was the case with Standard Oil, for example, back before the Progressives decided to meddle. Standard Oil had a dominant (but NOT EXCLUSIVE) market share because it invested huge sums of money doing research on how to use crude oil for products other than gasoline and diesel. They invented "petroleum jelly" and many, many other petroleum-based products by investing a lot of money in research. They also spent a lot of time and money engineering extraction (drilling), transportation and processing improvements that allowed them to drill, extract, refine and ship their products more efficiently and at a lower cost than other oil producers. In part they did this by negotiating exclusive contracts with rail carriers to give them preference and lower rates on their products in return for guarantees of income to the railroads based on bulk capacity and delivery.

What happened was that the "little guys" (like Texaco) complained to the Progressives that they couldn't compete with Standard Oil's low price for its basic products: gasoline and diesel. These smaller companies didn't have the technology or infrastructure to get the oil to market as cheaply as Standard Oil because they had not invested a fraction of the money that Standard Oil did in developing marketing innovations to lower costs! But they bitched to the Progressives anyway, and Progressives, being as Progressives are (mostly Marxist useful idiots) decided it wasn't "fair" for Standard Oil to hold the dominant market share, so they passed various anti-trust and anti-monopoly acts and forced Standard Oil (and many other large companies) to "break up" into smaller, separate companies so as to "give the little guys a chance" to compete.

They didn't do it because it protected consumers because Standard Oil wasn't "raping" consumers as the result of monopolizing the market, in fact, gasoline and diesel were never and never have been cheaper on an inflation-adjusted basis in all of human history. Standard Oil sold gasoline at such low prices it actually stimulated the development and sales of automobiles in the US. Gas was incredibly cheap, on the order of what today would be less than $0.50 per gallon in today's dollars, that people could afford to buy cars and drive everywhere, which stimulated the economy to an incredible extent. And the minute Standard Oil was broken up, fuel prices more than doubled and we've seen the results ever since.

But the Progressives didn't care, they wanted to be "fair" to the little guy, or so they said. What they actually wanted was an excuse to stick their god-damned noses into the marketplace and build a legal history of market manipulation by government to choose POLITICAL winners and losers in the marketplace. And that's exactly what happened and has been going on ever since. You don't think Obama actually has any constitutional power to eliminate coal as a fuel do you? No, he does not, nor does the EPA. It was the Progressive Supreme Court of FDR's New Deal that eviscerated the Constitution and gave Congress essentially plenary power over "commerce" with the incredibly destructive "Wickard v. Filburn" case, in which the Court ruled that FDR could forbid a farmer from growing wheat on his own land, to be fed to his own livestock and turned into his own bread, which was never to even enter commerce of any kind because by so doing he would "affect" interstate commerce and frustrate the Agricultural Adjustment Act's blatant and deliberate policy of keeping wheat (and other crops) production artificially low in order to POLITICALLY create artificial shortages that had very real people going hungry simply in order to keep the price of wheat high...during a time when there were no shortages at all of wheat, and in fact were tremendous surpluses that were left to rot, forbidden from being sold or processed.

So, the upshot is that the government NEVER makes anything better by meddling in the markets, it just makes things worse, more expensive, and less available, usually deliberately, and always to profit or benefit someone particular as a POLITICAL gimme, usually in return for slush-fund campaign corruption and political support.

The nature of freewheeling capitalism is that the biggest grow bigger and the smallest get crowed out.
Nope, the nature of capitalism and the free market is that the best product at the best price ALWAYS WINS IN THE END. Whenever a corporation displeases the consumer by overcharging or being arrogant or simply by providing bad service or inferior products...or no products that the public wants, someone else will quickly come along and seek to fill any market niche that is unserved or inadequately served by the "big corporations."

Only government can (and sadly does) prevent that from happening, and it does so by political meddling and monopoly tactics...like, oh, General Electric for example, which is a "favored" leftist corporation that has a very cozy relationship with government and therefore gets all the lucrative government contracts for everything from washing machines to jet engines.

So, quite simply, you're just plain wrong.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by rainbow » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:16 am

Seth wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Seth wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Ian wrote:Technology progresses fastest when both the public and private sectors are able to develop with little interference. They benefit each other. Time and time again, private industry piggybacks on top of something created by a government project with solely military or scientific goals in mind. And those public developers benefit by making use of the fast, competitive R&D done within the private sector for profit goals.

To say one side is simply better than the other is to miss the point. Both sides do certain things that would never be done by the other. They're a yin/yang relationship.
Correct. The Genome Project is an example.
No private enterprise would take on the cost of this and share the information. Many private enterprises are building on this information.

I find it difficult to believe that anyone can't see this.
Nonsense. The following is from the Wiki page.
Applications and proposed benefits

The sequencing of the human genome holds benefits for many fields, from molecular medicine to human evolution. The Human Genome Project, through its sequencing of the DNA, can help us understand diseases including: genotyping of specific viruses to direct appropriate treatment; identification of mutations linked to different forms of cancer; the design of medication and more accurate prediction of their effects; advancement in forensic applied sciences; biofuels and other energy applications; agriculture, animal husbandry, bioprocessing; risk assessment; bioarcheology, anthropology and evolution. Another proposed benefit is the commercial development of genomics research related to DNA based products, a multibillion dollar industry.
The last sentence is all you need to read to know that private funding would have become available as the demand for DNA based products emerged.
No Seth, it says exactly what I said.

The government put up the money for the original research, then shared the information with private researchers. They have found the practical applications.

Get a grip man, you are starting to look foolish.
That's happenstance. What it says is that there was a market for genome-related information long before the project was started. Indeed, the project was hatched at a private meeting. While government funding paid for it, there's nothing to say that private money would not have emerged to pay for it when the market conditions were ripe. It most certainly would have become available once the researchers convinced the market that the investment was worth it and would return more than it cost. The fact that government jumped the gun is just a typical reaction of politicians and bureaucrats who have taxpayer money to throw about with abandon in hopes of getting their names up in lights for being the ones who "generously donated" the necessary funds...which they stole from taxpayers without asking them if they wanted to participate in the experiment.
More drivel. The risk would be too great for private research, and even if work were to be done it would be kept secret from other researchers, resulting in a duplication of effort.

What you are suggesting is time wasting and neither cost effective or efficient.
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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Seth » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:30 pm

rainbow wrote: More drivel. The risk would be too great for private research,
If the risk is too great, then the eventual economic benefits are too small and there is no need for the research at this time.
and even if work were to be done it would be kept secret from other researchers,
Ah, so you want FREE access to the human genome...well, "free" in the sense that the government stole billions of dollars from the taxpaying public without their permission and without even asking them if they minded, so that some socialist can make use of the data for nothing. So why should I pay anything towards the research at all when I can sit back, wait and get the results for free, paid for by other people's money?
resulting in a duplication of effort.
Nothing wrong with duplication of effort, that's why we have more than one brand of automobile, among other things that flourish under the competition of "duplication of effort."
What you are suggesting is time wasting and neither cost effective or efficient.
Time is both relative and eternal, and it can't be "wasted" if somebody is interested in the project, and "cost effective" is NOT something that the government ever can claim for anything it ever funds. And the most "efficient" form of research is that paid for by private enterprise, which, because it's their money being spent, watch like a hawk and demand value for value, something government has neither the interest nor the capacity to demand of any government contractor.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by rainbow » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:50 pm

Seth wrote:
rainbow wrote: More drivel. The risk would be too great for private research,
If the risk is too great, then the eventual economic benefits are too small and there is no need for the research at this time.
Cowdung.

Governments can take risks on research going nowhere.

Private companies can't do this, since they will go out of business if the research has no commercial application.
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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Seth » Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:02 pm

rainbow wrote:
Seth wrote:
rainbow wrote: More drivel. The risk would be too great for private research,
If the risk is too great, then the eventual economic benefits are too small and there is no need for the research at this time.
Cowdung.

Governments can take risks on research going nowhere.
Of course they can, but they can only do it by stealing money from taxpayers and usually without asking them or even telling them what sort of massive speculative waste of the taxpayer's labor and property it's going to take to produce absolutely nothing of value while uselessly employing legions of government-slop-trough-snouting academics and scientists who ought to be out filling potholes or digging ditches or doing almost anything other than what they do, which is pretty much nothing of importance.
Private companies can't do this, since they will go out of business if the research has no commercial application.
Exactly. And that's a good thing.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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