birth of liberty, 800 years ago in Britain.

[Blind groper]

No Seth.

If something saves one life and results in 100 other people dying, it is most definitely NOT worth it.

Guns in the USA save very few lives, but take 10,000 lives as murders each year, another 12,000 as suicides, and a further 80,000 people are wounded each year. If the 400 criminals shot dead result in 400 lives saved (which you have not demonstrated), then it is definitely not worth the cost.

The 2.5 million DGU number from Lott has been denounced by his fellow academics, and his methods shown to be wrong. This is not surprising, since Lott is making a lot of money through his writings and his talks, where he says guns are good. It is a basic principle for any skeptic that you cannot trust a person with a financial agenda. Lott is a liar.

The number presented by the FBI is NOT shootings. It is when a person claims to have used a gun defensively, and you, Seth, have made the point many times, that a gun does not have to be fired to be used defensively. But if it was not fired, was it needed? I seriously doubt it in most of those cases.

Most people are idiots. That is almost an article of faith held by rational and skeptical people. Idiots with guns are worse. There are a thousand different scenarios in which an idiot with a gun will pull out that gun to fend off a perceived 'threat' when no such threat exists. Yet those idiots will report it as a DGU.

[Seth]

No Seth.

If something saves one life and results in 100 other people dying, it is most definitely NOT worth it.

And therefore gun control is not worth it, since gun control has directly or indirectly caused at least 100 million deaths in the last century.

Guns in the USA save very few lives,

You lie.

but take 10,000 lives as murders each year,

You lie. Last time it was 9000. Besides, guns don't kill people, people kill people. And potential murder victims need guns to keep from being murdered.

another 12,000 as suicides,

Who cares? It's their life to take.

and a further 80,000 people are wounded each year.

Again, guns don't wound people, people wound people, and they don't necessarily need guns to do so...but their victims may need a gun to keep from being wounded.

If the 400 criminals shot dead result in 400 lives saved (which you have not demonstrated), then it is definitely not worth the cost.

Four hundred criminals shot dead is four hundred criminals shot dead under circumstances where deadly force was authorized, which means that the shooter reasonably believed that her life, or the life of another person was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm and that a lesser degree of force would have been inadequate. Therefore it is perfectly appropriate to say that 400 lives were saved or prevented from being harmed.

The 2.5 million DGU number from Lott has been denounced by his fellow academics, and his methods shown to be wrong.

You lie. Each attack on Lott's work has been thoroughly refuted by further research by many others.

This is not surprising, since Lott is making a lot of money through his writings and his talks, where he says guns are good. It is a basic principle for any skeptic that you cannot trust a person with a financial agenda. Lott is a liar.

Ad hominem attack and circumstantial ad hominem fallacy. And if you don't think your academic pets at Harvard have a financial agenda, you're a bigger idiot than I thought.

The number presented by the FBI is NOT shootings. It is when a person claims to have used a gun defensively, and you, Seth, have made the point many times, that a gun does not have to be fired to be used defensively. But if it was not fired, was it needed? I seriously doubt it in most of those cases.

And we should accept your gross non-expertise over that of the FBI why, exactly?

Most people are idiots.

Well, you certainly demonstrate that characteristic on a regular basis.

That is almost an article of faith held by rational and skeptical people.

Who, according to you, are mostly idiots.

Idiots with guns are worse.

Fallacy of composition. Go look it up.

There are a thousand different scenarios in which an idiot with a gun will pull out that gun to fend off a perceived 'threat' when no such threat exists.

And 2.5 million where a threat does exist. You have zero evidence that no such threat existed, therefore your conclusion is false.

Yet those idiots will report it as a DGU.

Because it was.

[Blind groper]

The critics of Lott and his methods are not just a small group at Harvard. It is many, and from a wide number of institutions. His 2.5 million figure came from a very careless and badly designed 'study' in which he phoned 5000 people. His critics tried to find out more about this 'study' and could not. No research assistants. No approval by Lott's superiors. No witnesses to his work. Nothing. There is zero evidence to even suggest the work was done. It is just as likely that Lott invented this number. Since he makes $$$$ out of his so-called research, he has millions of reasons to lie.

[Seth]

The critics of Lott and his methods are not just a small group at Harvard. It is many, and from a wide number of institutions.

All of them left-wing liberal known anti-gun.

His 2.5 million figure came from a very careless and badly designed 'study' in which he phoned 5000 people.

No it didn't.

His critics tried to find out more about this 'study' and could not. No research assistants. No approval by Lott's superiors. No witnesses to his work. Nothing. There is zero evidence to even suggest the work was done. It is just as likely that Lott invented this number. Since he makes $$$$ out of his so-called research, he has millions of reasons to lie.

Refuted, rebutted and his work has been peer-reviewed and revised several times since he first published.

You're full of crap.

[Brian Peacock]

Nonetheless, can one really claim that the US is a bastion of liberty with such a relatively high level of violent crime, with such a relatively highly of poverty, and with such a relatively high prison population? Is liberty maintained by guns and chains a liberty in anything but name?

[Seth]

Nonetheless, can one really claim that the US is a bastion of liberty with such a relatively high level of violent crime, with such a relatively highly of poverty, and with such a relatively high prison population? Is liberty maintained by guns and chains a liberty in anything but name?

Well, it may be that being a bastion of liberty requires sacrifice in that liberty implies that we don't want the sort of police state that is required to create utopian fantasy peace and universal goodwill.

I have my problems with our prison population, many of whom are minor drug offenders who shouldn't be in jail, but then again having them in jail is preferable to having them on the streets robbing and killing people, as in the case of the five-time illegal alien felon who randomly shot a young woman in San Francisco, a "sanctuary city" just the other day.

Let citizens enjoy the liberty of being armed against such people and both the crime rate and the prison population will drop.

As for poverty, our "poor" live higher on the hog than almost anywhere else. Few and far between are the poor people who don't have housing, air conditioning, cell phones, flat-screen TV sets, automobiles and enough food that they die from obesity rather than starvation.

Besides, poverty is part of liberty too, just as wealth is. Here, if you don't want to be poor, you don't have to be poor because you have an unrestricted ability to better yourself as much as you are able, and if you're really not able, society will help you out...voluntarily.

So yeah, liberty is better than servitude even if the costs are higher.

[Blind groper]

The USA is much more of a police state than NZ, Australia, or the UK, where the police will treat the public with courtesy, and helpfulness. We do not get criminals shot in the back while running away.

[Brian Peacock]

Or have police officers shipping random men off to a secret warehouse to torture them into confessing to something they didn't do. Nor do we use inmates as indentured labour to undercut and undermine the local economy.

[Seth]

Or have police officers shipping random men off to a secret warehouse to torture them into confessing to something they didn't do. Nor do we use inmates as indentured labour to undercut and undermine the local economy.

Indeed. Those are the seamy underside of the Marxist nature of New York City and its leaders.

That shit don't happen in Free America.

[Blind groper]

So Seth, the USA is not a free country after all in your opinion. Just a few bits of it?

[Seth]

So Seth, the USA is not a free country after all in your opinion. Just a few bits of it?

No, it's a free country with bits of it that aren't so free...thanks to socialism.

[Blind groper]

Does this mean, Seth, that you are still clinging to your delusion that socialism and Marxism are the same thing?

[Seth]

Does this mean, Seth, that you are still clinging to your delusion that socialism and Marxism are the same thing?

They aren't the same thing, socialism is the fruit of the poisonous tree of Marxism. Socialists are simply too fucking stupid to understand this. Just look at the Greeks.

[Seth]

One shot would have ended this attack...one shot from anybody on the train.

Daily Caller News Foundation
The Horrifying Details Of The Independence Day Train Stabbing In DC
Photo of Josh Fatzick
Josh Fatzick
Reporter
6:18 PM 07/08/2015




Two men among many got on a train heading for festivities in downtown D.C. on the Fourth of July, but only one of them got off alive. A police affidavit released Tuesday shows the gruesome details of a robbery attempt gone wrong.

Shortly after 12:30 p.m. on July 4, Kevin Sutherland entered a train station on his way to meet some friends in the city. Shortly after, another man, Jasper Spires, entered the station, and the two waited for the train to arrive.

When the train pulled into the station, the two men joined the other Fourth of July revelers in one of the cars.

That’s when tragedy struck.

Spires attempted to grab a cellphone from Sutherland’s waistband and the two began to tussle, according to witness testimony in the affidavit. Spires then began punching Sutherland in the face until he fell to the ground, where the assault continued.
429978_381592168518084_1664338647_n

Jasper Spires
Kevin Sutherland

Kevin Sutherland

Once on the ground, witnesses said Sutherland cried for help before Spires pulled out a knife and stabbed him between 30 and 40 times in the chest, abdomen, back, side and arms, until he was dead.

At that point, Spires reportedly grabbed the cellphone, which had fallen on to the floor, and smashed it on Sutherland’s lifeless body before repeatedly kicking him in the head.

When he was done, Spires turned his attention to the rest of the passengers on the crowded train car. He stormed toward one witness and demanded they hand over their money.

“What do y’all got?,” Spires asked the train passenger.

The passenger, who was not named in the affidavit, handed over around $65 and another female victim gave Spires an unknown sum of money.

This all happened in the three minutes it took for the train to travel from the Rhode Island Avenue station to the NoMa-Galludet University station. Once the train arrived, Spires sprinted off the train, down an escalator and hopped over a turnstile before disappearing into the crowd of tourists in the city to celebrate the holiday.

Before leaving the train station, though, Spires reportedly dropped a bookbag containing a brown washcloth that contained what is believed to be Sutherland’s blood and a health insurance card with the name Jasper Spires on it, and threw a knife into a nearby trashcan.

Police arrested Spires and charged him with murder, following a citywide manhunt Monday morning.

The affidavit shows that police arrested Spires on July 2 for an unrelated robbery, and he was released on his own recognizance the following day, less than 24 hours before he allegedly murdered Sutherland.

[Blind groper]

The murderer killed one person, which is tragic, but it was just one. If guns were involved, who knows how high the death toll might have got to.

If you were a bit smarter, Seth, you would note that the assault became serious AFTER the victim was helpless. Had he pulled out a gun at that stage, the assailant would have ended up with a gun as well as a knife. That is a recipe for multiple deaths.

Had the victim pulled out a gun earlier, and used it, he would have committed murder.

The murderer was caught, and will now spend many years in prison. Justice is done.