The Future of Wind Turbines? No Blades?...

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mistermack
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Re: The Future of Wind Turbines? No Blades?...

Post by mistermack » Tue May 26, 2015 10:02 pm

JimC wrote:mm is technically correct to say that it is the combination of a hydrocarbon fuel and a given quantity of oxygen that can be said to have a certain amount of chemical potential energy. However, the availability of the correct amount of oxygen is usually taken for granted, and the energy value of the fuel is simply expressed as kilojoules per kilogram. Thermodynamic considerations then determine the percentage of useful energy that can be extracted from the total.
That's right. But when people are talking about ''energy stored in the fuel'' they are ignorant of the fact that the energy is stored in a combination of the fuel and the oxygen.

If anybody thinks the energy is stored in the fuel, they should try driving a car with the air intake blocked off.
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Re: The Future of Wind Turbines? No Blades?...

Post by JimC » Tue May 26, 2015 10:10 pm

I did say "technically correct"... ;)

It is fairly usual to abbreviate, assume the availability of enough O2 for complete combustion, and perform calculations of available energy purely on the mass of a given hydrocarbon fuel...
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F*@#% Magnets...

Post by piscator » Tue May 26, 2015 10:11 pm

The system is based on the same principles as an alternator: electromagnetic induction. We then multiply that movement and speed magnetically without the use of gear assemblies or ball bearings. And that is how we turn the mechanical energy of the structure into electricity.

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Re: F*@#% Magnets...

Post by JimC » Tue May 26, 2015 10:35 pm

piscator wrote:
The system is based on the same principles as an alternator: electromagnetic induction. We then multiply that movement and speed magnetically without the use of gear assemblies or ball bearings. And that is how we turn the mechanical energy of the structure into electricity.
This would avoid direct frictional losses, but induction itself is never 100% efficient - a certain amount of the initial energy will end up as heat in the induction coil or equivalent. As usual, the devil will be in the details...
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Re: F*@#% Magnets...

Post by mistermack » Tue May 26, 2015 10:46 pm

piscator wrote:
The system is based on the same principles as an alternator: electromagnetic induction. We then multiply that movement and speed magnetically without the use of gear assemblies or ball bearings. And that is how we turn the mechanical energy of the structure into electricity.
That tells you practically nothing. In fact it's gobbledegook.
All generators use induction. The bit after that sounds like magic to me.
The word ''magnetically'' doesn't tell you anything.
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Re: The Future of Wind Turbines? No Blades?...

Post by piscator » Wed May 27, 2015 12:06 am

That was sort of the point....

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Re: The Future of Wind Turbines? No Blades?...

Post by mistermack » Wed May 27, 2015 9:20 am

piscator wrote:That was sort of the point....
Oh, ok.

My mind reading faculties are a bit under par these days. Especially from ten thousand miles away. :think: :?
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Re: The Future of Wind Turbines? No Blades?...

Post by Seth » Thu May 28, 2015 12:58 am

Svartalf wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Svartalf wrote:how far will your car get on a tankful but without spark plugs to launch the chemical reaction that turns the fuel into energy?
how much energy do you get from wood or coal if you don't have a fire to set it alight?
How much energy do you get from wind without a windmill or some such device?
wind is energy in motion, the mill is there to catch it, it's not the same as fuel wich has energy potential but needs pretty forceful treatment (literally being set on fire) to release it.
Actually, wind is mass in motion. The energy to move that mass ultimately comes from the sun.
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Re: The Future of Wind Turbines? No Blades?...

Post by Seth » Thu May 28, 2015 12:59 am

Hermit wrote:
mistermack wrote:It doesn't take energy to move everything. A photon can travel right across the universe, without any energy input.
As could you.
Right. I'll just sit on a photon then, and see if it gets me to the shops.
It takes energy to create a photon.
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Re: The Future of Wind Turbines? No Blades?...

Post by Seth » Thu May 28, 2015 1:02 am

mistermack wrote:
Seth wrote: So what would you technically call the energy stored in fuel? Fossil fuels are the product of sunlight and organic processes that sequester solar energy through chemical reactions that can be released by other chemical reactions, both aerobic and anaerobic.

I think we're niggling over technicalities since you obviously know what we mean.
It's energy in the molecular bonds. All matter has energy ''stored'' in it, but some is easier to get at than other.
In the case of combustible fuels, it's only because of the free oxygen in the air that we can release energy by burning it.

Methane is a fuel on Earth, but on Mars it's just inert snow and ice. It only has available energy because of the oxygen.
You could say that a quantity of fuel and oxygen, taken together, have available energy stored.
That's molecular bond energy, some of which is released, when they combine and form new bonds.
Agreed. But, on Mars, oxygen would be the "fuel." And oxygen is not needed to release energy in all cases, specifically nuclear energy.
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Re: The Future of Wind Turbines? No Blades?...

Post by Seth » Thu May 28, 2015 1:11 am

mistermack wrote:
JimC wrote:mm is technically correct to say that it is the combination of a hydrocarbon fuel and a given quantity of oxygen that can be said to have a certain amount of chemical potential energy. However, the availability of the correct amount of oxygen is usually taken for granted, and the energy value of the fuel is simply expressed as kilojoules per kilogram. Thermodynamic considerations then determine the percentage of useful energy that can be extracted from the total.
That's right. But when people are talking about ''energy stored in the fuel'' they are ignorant of the fact that the energy is stored in a combination of the fuel and the oxygen.

If anybody thinks the energy is stored in the fuel, they should try driving a car with the air intake blocked off.
Energy is stored in the fuel, it's just that it takes oxygen (and an ignition source) to release that energy. There's energy in oxygen too.

It is correct to say that the fuel system of a motor vehicle is moving energy...two types, the fuel and the oxidizer. Both are needed, but the point we're discussing is how one moves or transmits the energy from point A to point B.

In a hydraulic system the energy (force) is transmitted from point A to point B using the feature of incompressibility of fluids. Theoretically, a hydraulic hose is not functionally different from a push rod. Input X newtons of force to one end of the push rod and you get X-y (y being transmission losses) at the other end. Hydraulic systems are efficient because of HOW one can transmit that force, such as around corners, that would be difficult or impossible to do with push rods. The trade off is that a push rod is (almost) 100 percent efficient whereas a hydraulic system has friction losses because the fluid has to move through the hose and some heat losses caused by compression in the pump.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The Future of Wind Turbines? No Blades?...

Post by piscator » Thu May 28, 2015 1:17 am

mistermack wrote:
piscator wrote:That was sort of the point....
Oh, ok.

My mind reading faculties are a bit under par these days. Especially from ten thousand miles away. :think: :?


The whole thing is starting to stink. :coffee:

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Re: The Future of Wind Turbines? No Blades?...

Post by mistermack » Thu May 28, 2015 3:34 am

piscator wrote: The whole thing is starting to stink. :coffee:
:shock:
You could give it a wash, now and then.
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Re: The Future of Wind Turbines? No Blades?...

Post by mistermack » Thu May 28, 2015 9:36 am

I've got a friend who invested in an ''invention'' for a new kind of bio-degradable plastic, for supermarket bags. It was something about being able to accurately fix the speed of degradation, by altering one factor.
My friend isn't rich, so he didn't invest much. But some of his friends are very rich, and put a hell of a lot of money into it.

It sounded promising, so I tried to get some details, but it was always vague, when it came to the final information. They were kept on a string for years. They were waiting for this, waiting for that, etc etc. But the rewards were going to be enormous.

Nobody got a penny, and the money all vapourised.
If people want your money, there should be nothing vague. You need to know exactly where every penny is going, and what assets are being bought and used, and what banks are involved.
Otherwise, it's best to smell a rat and leave it alone.
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Re: The Future of Wind Turbines? No Blades?...

Post by Hermit » Thu May 28, 2015 9:59 am

Also, predictions made in good faith, and in light of all the best information available at the time about what will eventually happen can be several magnitudes off the mark. In the early 1950s the designers of nuclear power plants prognosticated that the electricity generated by those plants will be so cheap that it won't be worth metering the consumption by domestic customers. Rather than go through the process of installing metering devices it will be more profitable to just levy a periodic service charge. And they had the figures to back their claim up with too.

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