The Son Also Rises.

[Seth]

No use. On the rare occasion he concedes that he was in error about something he immediately qualifies his concession in a way that neutralises it. Basically he'll say that even though he was wrong he was right, or to put it in his own words: "Yes, I was wrong about that, but the point remains."

And indeed it does. It's pettifoggery to claim that the meaning of the word "bribe" as used by BG was not clearly intended in the pejorative context of an unspoken "illegal" before the word "bribe." Otherwise his statement is non sequitur.

Here's the original entry:

That does not make the people powerless, of course. We can still work to influence the government in constructive directions. Sadly, this influence also extends to big business and to less desirable lobby groups, who use their money and power to push government in undesirable directions. The classic example of this today is the gun manufacturing lobby in the USA, which spends (this is public knowledge) hundreds of millions of dollars each year to support their minions (like the NRA) and to directly bribe (campaign contributions) politicians, to get the outcome they want.

Note that he first maligns "big business" and "less desirable lobby groups" by stating as a fact that they spend money to "push government in undesirable directions." This is, of course, a personal opinion and value judgment on his part, not a fact of any sort. But the gist is a pejorative connotation that is extended when he cites the "gun manufacturing lobby" as an example of this "undesirable direction" that comes from "directly brib(ing) politicians."

Clearly the connotation of the use of the word "bribe" is negative, and deliberately so as indicated by his specifically attaching the word to "campaign contributions." If he was talking about the Sierra Club or the Democratic Socialist Party doing exactly the same thing to exactly the same politician in order to support HIS preferred agenda, he would not call it a "bribe," he'd call it a campaign contribution intended to move government in a "desirable" direction and therefore perfectly appropriate, reasonable, and lawful.

So fuck off with the pettifoggery why don'cha?

[Hermit]

Let me remind you of how exactly our conversation went. I highlighted some bits to help you understand.

Er, if it's legal, it's not bribery, by definition.

How dumb can your posts possibly get? Bribery is paying officials to do what you want.

No, bribery by definition is illegally paying officials to do what you want.[quote]If they make that legal, it's suddenly not bribery?

Er, yes.

Er, no. Care to consult a dictionary?

bribe1. Money or some other benefit given to a person in power, especially a public official, in an effort to cause the person to take a particular action.
2. Something offered to induce another to do something: tried to use dessert as a bribe to get the child to cooperate.

Nothing about the necessity of something to be an illegal about an inducement for someone to do something in order for the inducement to be considered a bribe.[/quote]And you call yourself a rational, logical master debater.

[Seth]

Let me remind you of how exactly our conversation went. I highlighted some bits to help you understand.

Er, if it's legal, it's not bribery, by definition.

How dumb can your posts possibly get? Bribery is paying officials to do what you want.

No, bribery by definition is illegally paying officials to do what you want.[quote]If they make that legal, it's suddenly not bribery?

Er, yes.

Er, no. Care to consult a dictionary?

bribe1. Money or some other benefit given to a person in power, especially a public official, in an effort to cause the person to take a particular action.
2. Something offered to induce another to do something: tried to use dessert as a bribe to get the child to cooperate.

Nothing about the necessity of something to be an illegal about an inducement for someone to do something in order for the inducement to be considered a bribe.
And you call yourself a rational, logical master debater.

Oh horseshit. You wouldn't have used the word "bribe" if you didn't intent it to be pejorative.

[Hermit]

Never mind the popularly accepted connotation that goes with the word "bribe". The fact is that a bribe does not have to be illegal to be a bribe.

[Seth]

Never mind the popularly accepted connotation that goes with the word "bribe". The fact is that a bribe does not have to be illegal to be a bribe.

I won't "never mind" because that's clearly the connotation you wished to impart in your argument, notwithstanding the technical definition.

[Hermit]

Never mind the popularly accepted connotation that goes with the word "bribe". The fact is that a bribe does not have to be illegal to be a bribe.

I won't "never mind" because that's clearly the connotation you wished to impart in your argument, notwithstanding the technical definition.

My argument is that a bribe does not have to be illegal to be a bribe and that you are clearly wrong in arguing otherwise.

[mistermack]

This is a case that illustrates Seth's willingness to argue that black is white.
Anybody with the slightest intelligence can see immediately that a bribe doesn't have to be illegal to be a bribe.
That means nothing to a troll. Arguing that black is white is what they do.

[Hermit]

This is a case that illustrates Seth's willingness to argue that black is white.
Anybody with the slightest intelligence can see immediately that a bribe doesn't have to be illegal to be a bribe.
That means nothing to a troll. Arguing that black is white is what they do.

He is no longer claiming that bribes need to be illegal to be called bribes. He just has a problem admitting that he got something wrong, so he evades the issue by talking about something I was not.

I think we all think of bribes as either good or bad, depending on what we think about the cause or motivation they are made for. To behaviourists it's just one part of operant conditioning. Basically, we encourage behaviour we approve of with the proverbial carrot.

[Blind groper]

The point has been well made that a bribe does not have to be illegal. However, legal is not a synonym for right. Legal things may be wrong, or immoral.

Bribes are common in most systems of government. We hide them as campaign contributions, but they are still bribes. In fact, this is probably the major source of corruption in democracies. Politicians end up doing what tiny minority groups with lots of money want, rather than "the greatest good for the greatest number."

Since democracy is supposed to be 'government of the people, by the people and for the people', seeing it diverted into government for very small pressure groups with lots of money has to be seen as corrupt, and immoral.

[mistermack]

The damage that legal bribes do is well illustrated by the case of Israel.

Every US president has been bought and paid for by the Israel lobby before they even get to the White House. And that includes Obama. They don't give a fuck, they just want to get elected.
The palestinians are small change to them.

If they didn't have the backing of the US, Israel would be under crippling sanctions for their vicious apartheid policies. The bribes paid in Washington are well worth the money.

[Blind groper]

I totally agree.

I recall seeing a TV doco on the Israel/Palestine relationship, and the way the Palestinians were treated was the same as the way Nazis treated Jews, except for the death camps. Quite disgusting.

[JimC]

Never mind the popularly accepted connotation that goes with the word "bribe". The fact is that a bribe does not have to be illegal to be a bribe.

I won't "never mind" because that's clearly the connotation you wished to impart in your argument, notwithstanding the technical definition.

My argument is that a bribe does not have to be illegal to be a bribe and that you are clearly wrong in arguing otherwise.

I partly agree with Seth, in that there is no doubt that the term "bribe" is pejorative, notwithstanding the legal status of various types of political donations. However, the fact is that large donations made by the wealthy and powerful to politicians to induce them to support policies which help the rich and powerful can be socially damaging, whether or not it is legally sanctioned. In other words, the pejorative nature of the term "bribe" is justified, so Hermit has no need to dismiss the "popularly accepted connotation". If the cap fits, the bribers and bribees can wear it...

[Svartalf]

Pejorative as it is, the term "to bribe" entails giving something to somebody to influence their behavior, but does not imply illegality... or parents bribing their kids with sweets and games for desired behavior would all be in jail.

[Seth]

Never mind the popularly accepted connotation that goes with the word "bribe". The fact is that a bribe does not have to be illegal to be a bribe.

I won't "never mind" because that's clearly the connotation you wished to impart in your argument, notwithstanding the technical definition.

My argument is that a bribe does not have to be illegal to be a bribe and that you are clearly wrong in arguing otherwise.

So what? We're discussing your comment, not semantics. If it's not an illegal bribe, then there's nothing morally wrong with doing so, call it what you will, as I have taken pains to point out. You're pettifogging. You intended it in the pejorative sense as is clearly shown by the context in which you used the word. If you did not mean it to sound pejorative then you would have not put it in that particular context, and you know it.

[Seth]

This is a case that illustrates Seth's willingness to argue that black is white.
Anybody with the slightest intelligence can see immediately that a bribe doesn't have to be illegal to be a bribe.
That means nothing to a troll. Arguing that black is white is what they do.

The question is the implied morality of the "bribe" in the context of the statement made. Whereas "bribe" is technically neutral in it's implication by dictionary definition, meaning no more or less than to give an official money to do what you want, the context of the use of the word is important in interpreting the meaning of the statement, and in this case "bribe" was used as a pejorative to imply that it is either illegal or immoral to give an official money to do what you want. I pointed out that we all give officials money to do what we want them to do in the ordinary course of business with the government, so we all technically "bribe" them. But we all know that's not what Hermit meant or said.