Jamest is right!

[Seth]

Bully? In what sense is he bullying anyone? I don't grasp that opinion at all.

Neither does Hack. He's just resorting to ad hom because he knows I'm right and he's wrong but he's too afraid of the consequences to his religious beliefs to admit it. Quite a common thing here among the orthodox Atheist zealots.

[jamest]

Bully? In what sense is he bullying anyone? I don't grasp that opinion at all.

Neither does Hack. He's just resorting to ad hom because he knows I'm right and he's wrong but he's too afraid of the consequences to his religious beliefs to admit it. Quite a common thing here among the orthodox Atheist zealots.

I don't know much about you, but you're an interesting character, I'll give you that. Nothing wrong with that though. So, fuck 'em.

[Seth]

Bully? In what sense is he bullying anyone? I don't grasp that opinion at all.

Neither does Hack. He's just resorting to ad hom because he knows I'm right and he's wrong but he's too afraid of the consequences to his religious beliefs to admit it. Quite a common thing here among the orthodox Atheist zealots.

I don't know much about you, but you're an interesting character, I'll give you that. Nothing wrong with that though. So, fuck 'em.

Thank you. But I don't say "fuck 'em," I actually enjoy the repartee. You see, I have no overblown ego to protect, so if I'm wrong, I'm okay with it because I learn something new. The main problem with Atheists is that they are morally certain of the absolute correctness of their logic and reason. Unfortunately for most of them it's an entirely unwarranted confidence because they so often fail when it comes to sound reasoning and logic, as I take great pains to point out and support with voluminous argumentation. And when you show them the error of their ways, like children, they get all pissed off and throw temper tantrums because they don't like to be told they are wrong and they take it personally, particularly rEv and Hack, but including others as well.

I don't mind their tantrums because, as I said, it's not them I'm playing to, it's the other audience, the lurkers and the visitors that I'm interested in educating, and I'm happy to allow the children here to demonstrate to that audience just exactly how childish and irrational they can be.

[jamest]

Bully? In what sense is he bullying anyone? I don't grasp that opinion at all.

Neither does Hack. He's just resorting to ad hom because he knows I'm right and he's wrong but he's too afraid of the consequences to his religious beliefs to admit it. Quite a common thing here among the orthodox Atheist zealots.

I don't know much about you, but you're an interesting character, I'll give you that. Nothing wrong with that though. So, fuck 'em.

Thank you. But I don't say "fuck 'em," I actually enjoy the repartee.

Me too, I was just being rhetorical.

You see, I have no overblown ego to protect

I don't know you well enough to comment.

... so if I'm wrong, I'm okay with it because I learn something new.

I've being saying that at ratskep for years. I only bother to debate with atheists because some of them are smart.

The main problem with Atheists is that they are morally certain of the absolute correctness of their logic and reason.

I'm not sure that it's about morals, since atheism leads to a void of morals. Notwithstanding nihilism.

Unfortunately for most of them it's an entirely unwarranted confidence because they so often fail when it comes to sound reasoning and logic, as I take great pains to point out and support with voluminous argumentation. And when you show them the error of their ways, like children, they get all pissed off and throw temper tantrums because they don't like to be told they are wrong and they take it personally, particularly rEv and Hack, but including others as well.

We need to compare t-shirts at some time.

I don't mind their tantrums because, as I said, it's not them I'm playing to, it's the other audience, the lurkers and the visitors that I'm interested in educating, and I'm happy to allow the children here to demonstrate to that audience just exactly how childish and irrational they can be.

You don't need to educate me, I'm holding your hand already.

Your big problem now, is that you have a theist who likes you and who would like to have a serious discussion with you, in this forum. Your credibility is now probably more fucked than what it already was. My apologies. I'm just being honest.

[Seth]

Your big problem now, is that you have a theist who likes you and who would like to have a serious discussion with you, in this forum. Your credibility is now probably more fucked than what it already was. My apologies. I'm just being honest.

Dude, my "credibility" has been "fucked" in places like this for about 30 years. And yet here I am. and there they are, still rising to the bait.

As for discussion, lead on MacDuff!

We could start a formal debate, which would keep the peanut gallery out of it.

[jamest]

Well, I don't know what you want to talk about. I'm an unidentifiable theist and you appear to be agnostic. Where does that leave us?

[pErvinalia]

Like Muslims, Marxists are allowed (indeed encouraged) to lie about being Marxists if it forwards the Marxist agenda.

What? All billion of them?

You wouldn't let an atheist away with making such a blanket statement about Christians. I'm not letting you get away without making one about Muslims

You're letting your Christianity slip, by the way. I mean its the only explanation as to why you come down hard on atheists while giving Chrsitians a free-pass while hypocritically making disparaging remarks about Muslims. I guess it's not only Muslims and Marxists who lie to forward their agenda.

I see Seth has migrated to the "whatever" strategy of answering charges. Seems he doesn't give a fuck that he's a dishonest cunt. Fucking loser.

[pErvinalia]

Seth says atheists are condescending and mean to theists. How horrible and nasty...

Many theists think that anyone who doesn't believe in their particular version of god will suffer an eternity of punishment after they die,

And if they are right, that makes their warnings and pleas charitable, altruistic and compassionate. Even if they are wrong, if they genuinely believe they are right, then their motives for attempting to persuade you to accept salvation are pure and should be respected rather than demeaned.

Great logic. Atheists should be respected rather than demeaned in their genuine belief that theists are ruining the lives of millions of people across the world. When will you, the "Tolerist" , be apologising for disrespecting us atheists?

Atheists think nobody will suffer anything after they die.

Atheists prefer to get their suffering up front and view death as a surcease from the trials and tribulations of life. If theists are wrong, why do you care what they have to say?[/quote][/quote]

If atheists are wrong, what do you care what they have to say?

As Hack said, logic is something that happens to people other than yourself, Seth.

[pErvinalia]

Like Muslims, Marxists are allowed (indeed encouraged) to lie about being Marxists if it forwards the Marxist agenda.

What? All billion of them?

You wouldn't let an atheist away with making such a blanket statement about Christians. I'm not letting you get away without making one about Muslims

You're letting your Christianity slip, by the way. I mean its the only explanation as to why you come down hard on atheists while giving Chrsitians a free-pass while hypocritically making disparaging remarks about Muslims. I guess it's not only Muslims and Marxists who lie to forward their agenda.

He's right. It's called Taqiya in Shia islam and idtirar in sunni. Look it up.

Unfortunately for Seth, he's made his bed of illogic, and he's going to have to lie in it. Just as he says the bible doesn't define Christian theism, he has to say that the Koran doesn't define Muslim theism.

[pErvinalia]

You're letting your Christianity slip, by the way. I mean its the only explanation as to why you come down hard on atheists while giving Chrsitians a free-pass while hypocritically making disparaging remarks about Muslims. I guess it's not only Muslims and Marxists who lie to forward their agenda.

I'm not a Christian, I just play one on the Internet. As for Muslims, it's right there in the Koran, so I'm just paraphrasing their own orthodoxy.

You made your bed of illogic, Seth. Now lie in it!

[pErvinalia]

But remember that because you failed in your quest to find God is not critically robust evidence that God does not exist.

Did I say it did?

You don't have to say it. The dishonest cunt will claim it regardless of all evidence to the contrary.

But neither is it wrong to believe in God(s). Your success or failure in that quest does not define everyone else's experience.

DId I say it did?

It doesn't matter what you say. It won't make any impression on his blinkered beliefs.

[pErvinalia]

But my point is that insofar as the motives and intentions of those who truly believe that hell awaits their children, they are not abusing them, they are attempting to protect them against a great evil and harm that might befall them if they are not warned off of the behaviors that result in such punishment. Philosophically it's no different from telling a child that if he murders someone he'll be put to death or locked up for life by the state.

If they were simply saying, "Don't do this because of that" I wouldn't have much of a problem. Sure I was told that crap myself. It is the lenghts these people go through to torment their children and wind them up and have them crying and frightened like whipped dogs I have a problem with.

My dad caught me sticking paper clips in the wall socket when I was about four. He went and bought an old crank telephone and put wires on the terminals. He made me hold the wires while he cranked. I got zapped. He made me do it three times. Then he told me that what was in the box was "little electricity" and what was in the wall socket was "big electricity." I was crying and frightened but I never, ever stuck a paperclip in a wall socket again.

If he did that today, they would put him in jail. But he thought, quite correctly, that the smaller hurt of the minor shock might very well save my life, which it did. It's a lesson I never, ever forgot, and I've never had anything but gratitude and admiration for his ingenuity in teaching me that lesson.

My dad told me not to stick things in power sockets, and I listened to him because I respected him. He didn't have to electrocute me.

[pErvinalia]

And if they are right, that makes their warnings and pleas charitable, altruistic and compassionate. Even if they are wrong, if they genuinely believe they are right, then their motives for attempting to persuade you to accept salvation are pure and should be respected rather than demeaned.

There's that free pass again.

Christians deserve all the demeaing they get for pulling off these scare tactics, a lot of them on their own children who they bully and terrify. And if I had a child and he came home crying and scared because some dickhead was putting the shits up him I would go over and punch his lights out.

I'd sympathize with you if it was your child.

On the other hand, to a believer, telling a child about eternal damnation as a "scare tactic" is just as rational and appropriate as telling them that they will blow the house up if they stick paper clips in the wall sockets. Warning a child against behavior that one truly believes will result in irreparable harm to them is hardly an act of evil. Just like warning an adult that they risk eternal damnation by not being saved, telling a child the same thing is an act of mercy and compassion for one who really believes that to be the case, even if it turns out they are mistaken. The motivation is important in analyzing the morality of the action.

I'm not sure I buy that. A person who rapes their own child could be doing it with the belief that they are doing it out of love.

And that mens rea will have an effect on how they are judged. If they are incapable of understanding the nature of the crime they committed, then they can be absolved by the justice system.

But that doesn't mean we just let them go back to doing what they were doing. We say that we think that belief is unacceptable behaviour in an evidence based civilised society. And that's the same thing we should do with the religious torment of innocent children.

[pErvinalia]

But my point is that insofar as the motives and intentions of those who truly believe that hell awaits their children, they are not abusing them, they are attempting to protect them against a great evil and harm that might befall them if they are not warned off of the behaviors that result in such punishment. Philosophically it's no different from telling a child that if he murders someone he'll be put to death or locked up for life by the state.

If they were simply saying, "Don't do this because of that" I wouldn't have much of a problem. Sure I was told that crap myself. It is the lenghts these people go through to torment their children and wind them up and have them crying and frightened like whipped dogs I have a problem with.

My dad caught me sticking paper clips in the wall socket when I was about four. He went and bought an old crank telephone and put wires on the terminals. He made me hold the wires while he cranked. I got zapped. He made me do it three times. Then he told me that what was in the box was "little electricity" and what was in the wall socket was "big electricity." I was crying and frightened but I never, ever stuck a paperclip in a wall socket again.

If he did that today, they would put him in jail. But he thought, quite correctly, that the smaller hurt of the minor shock might very well save my life, which it did. It's a lesson I never, ever forgot, and I've never had anything but gratitude and admiration for his ingenuity in teaching me that lesson.

If you believe that the wages of sin are eternal torment, then it's pretty easy to rationally justify "winding up" a child and frightening him into compliance. I'm not saying that's the best or only way to go about it, merely that the intentions of the parent are important when judging the actions, as are the actual physical consequences of both doing something and not doing something.

At least your father showed you somethng demonstable. Now imagine fucking up a child's whole life for something you can't even show. For making a gay kid suffer and send him to a "gay camp" because of something you think might happen.

It's abuse and nothing else and you're not going to change my mind on this. I don't care what pathetic excuse they have for doing it.

This assumes that they believe, as you appear to, that being "gay" is a normal and natural variation of human behavior. If they believe that engaging in homosexual activity will doom their child to eternal torment, are they fucking up the child's life or are they attempting to protect the child against a greater penalty in the future?

Should we allow beliefs without any evidence to dictate how we run civilised society? Why not respect the beliefs of paedophiles who think they are loving children? Have you even thought this through? No, of course not.

[pErvinalia]

Perhaps someone should change the title of this thread to 'Seth is never right'. I'm not really motivated to post here.

Sorry, Jimmy, it's not all about you bro.