Jamest is right!

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Xamonas Chegwé
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Re: Jamest is right!

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:03 pm

Animavore wrote:
Seth wrote: Like Muslims, Marxists are allowed (indeed encouraged) to lie about being Marxists if it forwards the Marxist agenda.
What? All billion of them?

You wouldn't let an atheist away with making such a blanket statement about Christians. I'm not letting you get away without making one about Muslims :mod:

You're letting your Christianity slip, by the way. I mean its the only explanation as to why you come down hard on atheists while giving Chrsitians a free-pass while hypocritically making disparaging remarks about Muslims. I guess it's not only Muslims and Marxists who lie to forward their agenda.
He's right. It's called Taqiya in Shia islam and idtirar in sunni. Look it up.
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Re: Jamest is right!

Post by Animavore » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:06 pm

Seth wrote:
And if they are right, that makes their warnings and pleas charitable, altruistic and compassionate. Even if they are wrong, if they genuinely believe they are right, then their motives for attempting to persuade you to accept salvation are pure and should be respected rather than demeaned.

There's that free pass again.

Christians deserve all the demeaing they get for pulling off these scare tactics, a lot of them on their own children who they bully and terrify. And if I had a child and he came home crying and scared because some dickhead was putting the shits up him I would go over and punch his lights out.
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Re: Jamest is right!

Post by Animavore » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:06 pm

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Seth wrote: Like Muslims, Marxists are allowed (indeed encouraged) to lie about being Marxists if it forwards the Marxist agenda.
What? All billion of them?

You wouldn't let an atheist away with making such a blanket statement about Christians. I'm not letting you get away without making one about Muslims :mod:

You're letting your Christianity slip, by the way. I mean its the only explanation as to why you come down hard on atheists while giving Chrsitians a free-pass while hypocritically making disparaging remarks about Muslims. I guess it's not only Muslims and Marxists who lie to forward their agenda.
He's right. It's called Taqiya in Shia islam and idtirar in sunni. Look it up.
All billion of them?
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Re: Jamest is right!

Post by Seth » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:07 pm

Animavore wrote:For someone like me who started a Catholic, then rejected a god who cared about what you believe to the extent that he'd send you to an eternal hell if you didn't tow the line and moved to a more inclusive God of which all religion leads to imperfectly, religions being an artifact of men, to learning science and rejecting miracles and moving to a more deistic God who doesn't do shit, then from there moving to Buddhism and being influenced by certain forms of Christian mysticism in which 'God' is a name given to some incomprehensible, pervasive energy, to learning more science and understanding that there doesn't seem to be any unaccounted energy and asking more questions about whether anything extra needs to be added to naturalistic explanations, to say my atheism is a belief is fucking absurd in the highest.
Of course it's a belief. It's a belief that all the theistic systems you investigated are insufficiently supported and therefore the rational course of action is to disbelieve in them and you believe that science is the correct answer. But you have no actual evidence upon which to base a conclusion that deities do not exists, therefore it cannot be knowledge and can be nothing other than belief. There's nothing wrong with that belief. There's not even anything wrong with practicing that belief religiously.
Atheism is what you are left with when belief has been rubbed down to a nub, and eroded to dust.
Add "belief in theism" and I'd agree with you.
It's not something you turn to because you've been convinced of it by charismatic people, or wise-sounding words, or wishful thinking and fantastical tales - and I know what that feels like to feel that pang of conviction having been convinced of many things - it is the position of the totally unconvinced. It is the last resort when every avenue of belief has been explored to their inevitable dead ends. When every spiritual quest has ended in failure and disillusion because everywhere you've went all you've ever seen are people too willing to believe and too unwilling to question anything they're being told.
But remember that because you failed in your quest to find God is not critically robust evidence that God does not exist.
Giving up on belief was not something I took lightly, despite how easily each belief fell off when confronted with a better explanation as I don't have a mind particularily geared toward holding on to an explanation because I like it. It was something I just had to let go of like a deceased loved one. It is almost an insult to me to be told that this is in itself a belief. Kind of like being told that the acceptance of soemone's passing is itself a kind of holding on and refusal to accept reality.
You didn't give up on belief, you merely switched to a different belief, and it is not axiomatically true that what you think is a "better explanation" is actually a better explanation.

That ambiguity is simply an artifact of your humanity and there's nothing at all wrong with feeling that way.

But neither is it wrong to believe in God(s). Your success or failure in that quest does not define everyone else's experience.
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Re: Jamest is right!

Post by Seth » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:11 pm

Animavore wrote:
Seth wrote: Like Muslims, Marxists are allowed (indeed encouraged) to lie about being Marxists if it forwards the Marxist agenda.
What? All billion of them?

You wouldn't let an atheist away with making such a blanket statement about Christians. I'm not letting you get away without making one about Muslims :mod:
Now you're getting it. Dig deeper philosophically and apply the word "analogy." Also, note that I did not say that all Muslims or all Marxists lie, I said all Marxists and all Muslims are allowed and encouraged to lie about the true nature of their religion. That's a statement of orthodoxy, not a claim of universal deceit.
You're letting your Christianity slip, by the way. I mean its the only explanation as to why you come down hard on atheists while giving Chrsitians a free-pass while hypocritically making disparaging remarks about Muslims. I guess it's not only Muslims and Marxists who lie to forward their agenda.
I'm not a Christian, I just play one on the Internet. As for Muslims, it's right there in the Koran, so I'm just paraphrasing their own orthodoxy.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Jamest is right!

Post by Animavore » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:13 pm

Seth wrote:Of course it's a belief. It's a belief that all the theistic systems you investigated are insufficiently supported and therefore the rational course of action is to disbelieve in them and you believe that science is the correct answer. But you have no actual evidence upon which to base a conclusion that deities do not exists, therefore it cannot be knowledge and can be nothing other than belief. There's nothing wrong with that belief. There's not even anything wrong with practicing that belief religiously.
All wrong. I never said I believed that science is the correct answer for a start. The correct answer to what even? What you said makes no sense.
I never came to a conclusion that deities do not exist either. I stopped believing in them. Massive difference.
Seth wrote:
Add "belief in theism" and I'd agree with you.
Add it in which way? I don't get how that fits into the sentence.
Seth wrote: But remember that because you failed in your quest to find God is not critically robust evidence that God does not exist.
Did I say it did?
Seth wrote:You didn't give up on belief, you merely switched to a different belief, and it is not axiomatically true that what you think is a "better explanation" is actually a better explanation.
Nope. I gave up on belief. I found it not worthwhile pursuing. Don't tell me how I think. It is the height of bad manners.
Seth wrote: But neither is it wrong to believe in God(s). Your success or failure in that quest does not define everyone else's experience.
DId I say it did?
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Re: Jamest is right!

Post by Seth » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:18 pm

Animavore wrote:
Seth wrote:
And if they are right, that makes their warnings and pleas charitable, altruistic and compassionate. Even if they are wrong, if they genuinely believe they are right, then their motives for attempting to persuade you to accept salvation are pure and should be respected rather than demeaned.

There's that free pass again.

Christians deserve all the demeaing they get for pulling off these scare tactics, a lot of them on their own children who they bully and terrify. And if I had a child and he came home crying and scared because some dickhead was putting the shits up him I would go over and punch his lights out.
I'd sympathize with you if it was your child.

On the other hand, to a believer, telling a child about eternal damnation as a "scare tactic" is just as rational and appropriate as telling them that they will blow the house up if they stick paper clips in the wall sockets. Warning a child against behavior that one truly believes will result in irreparable harm to them is hardly an act of evil. Just like warning an adult that they risk eternal damnation by not being saved, telling a child the same thing is an act of mercy and compassion for one who really believes that to be the case, even if it turns out they are mistaken. The motivation is important in analyzing the morality of the action.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Jamest is right!

Post by Seth » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:20 pm

Animavore wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Seth wrote: Like Muslims, Marxists are allowed (indeed encouraged) to lie about being Marxists if it forwards the Marxist agenda.
What? All billion of them?

You wouldn't let an atheist away with making such a blanket statement about Christians. I'm not letting you get away without making one about Muslims :mod:

You're letting your Christianity slip, by the way. I mean its the only explanation as to why you come down hard on atheists while giving Chrsitians a free-pass while hypocritically making disparaging remarks about Muslims. I guess it's not only Muslims and Marxists who lie to forward their agenda.
He's right. It's called Taqiya in Shia islam and idtirar in sunni. Look it up.
All billion of them?
All billion of them are permitted and encouraged to lie to advance Islam. This does not mean that all Muslims (or Marxists) do so, merely that they may, according to their own religious orthodoxy, do so whenever and however they wish if they think it will advance their cause.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Jamest is right!

Post by Animavore » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:22 pm

Seth wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Seth wrote:
And if they are right, that makes their warnings and pleas charitable, altruistic and compassionate. Even if they are wrong, if they genuinely believe they are right, then their motives for attempting to persuade you to accept salvation are pure and should be respected rather than demeaned.

There's that free pass again.

Christians deserve all the demeaing they get for pulling off these scare tactics, a lot of them on their own children who they bully and terrify. And if I had a child and he came home crying and scared because some dickhead was putting the shits up him I would go over and punch his lights out.
I'd sympathize with you if it was your child.

On the other hand, to a believer, telling a child about eternal damnation as a "scare tactic" is just as rational and appropriate as telling them that they will blow the house up if they stick paper clips in the wall sockets. Warning a child against behavior that one truly believes will result in irreparable harm to them is hardly an act of evil. Just like warning an adult that they risk eternal damnation by not being saved, telling a child the same thing is an act of mercy and compassion for one who really believes that to be the case, even if it turns out they are mistaken. The motivation is important in analyzing the morality of the action.
I'm not sure I buy that. A person who rapes their own child could be doing it with the belief that they are doing it out of love. Psychological harm is just as bad as physical harm. I know there's lots of Christians who don't do the whole hell thing any more and even many who have done away with it (I certainly missed out on the fire and brimstone that the generation above me recieved), but I think people like those on the move Jesus Camp are nothing but abusive scum. I can't think of them in any other way.
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Re: Jamest is right!

Post by Animavore » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:23 pm

Seth wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Seth wrote: Like Muslims, Marxists are allowed (indeed encouraged) to lie about being Marxists if it forwards the Marxist agenda.
What? All billion of them?

You wouldn't let an atheist away with making such a blanket statement about Christians. I'm not letting you get away without making one about Muslims :mod:

You're letting your Christianity slip, by the way. I mean its the only explanation as to why you come down hard on atheists while giving Chrsitians a free-pass while hypocritically making disparaging remarks about Muslims. I guess it's not only Muslims and Marxists who lie to forward their agenda.
He's right. It's called Taqiya in Shia islam and idtirar in sunni. Look it up.
All billion of them?
All billion of them are permitted and encouraged to lie to advance Islam. This does not mean that all Muslims (or Marxists) do so, merely that they may, according to their own religious orthodoxy, do so whenever and however they wish if they think it will advance their cause.
I looked it up and this is what it said.
In Shi'a Islam, taqiya (تقیة taqiyyah/taqīyah) is a form of religious dissimulation, or a legal dispensation whereby a believing individual can deny his faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts, specially while they are in fear or at risk of significant persecution.
It seems they are permitted to lie to avoid persecution. Nothing about lying to forward the cause.
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Re: Jamest is right!

Post by Seth » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:26 pm

Animavore wrote:
Seth wrote:Of course it's a belief. It's a belief that all the theistic systems you investigated are insufficiently supported and therefore the rational course of action is to disbelieve in them and you believe that science is the correct answer. But you have no actual evidence upon which to base a conclusion that deities do not exists, therefore it cannot be knowledge and can be nothing other than belief. There's nothing wrong with that belief. There's not even anything wrong with practicing that belief religiously.
All wrong. I never said I believed that science is the correct answer for a start.


It's implicit in your statement.
The correct answer to what even? What you said makes no sense.
To whatever question you had that convinced you that theism is not the correct answer.
I never came to a conclusion that deities do not exist either. I stopped believing in them. Massive difference.
That's good of you to say, but somehow I doubt it's that easy. Facile denials like this appear to be little more than sophistry and evasion to me. You don't just "stop believing" in something, you replace one belief with another belief, and that belief appears to be that deities do not exist and that science is a better explanation for what you see around you.

But it's all beliefs, all the way down.
Seth wrote:
Add "belief in theism" and I'd agree with you.
Add it in which way? I don't get how that fits into the sentence.
Sorry, add "in theism" after "belief" in your sentence. It's necessary to be specific about what you are disbelieving.
Seth wrote: But remember that because you failed in your quest to find God is not critically robust evidence that God does not exist.
Did I say it did?
Nope. I'm just making that point clear to the readers.
Seth wrote:You didn't give up on belief, you merely switched to a different belief, and it is not axiomatically true that what you think is a "better explanation" is actually a better explanation.

Nope. I gave up on belief. I found it not worthwhile pursuing. Don't tell me how I think. It is the height of bad manners.
You gave up on belief in theism. Now you believe something else. And pointing out the errors in your reasoning and argumentation is what I do.
Seth wrote: But neither is it wrong to believe in God(s). Your success or failure in that quest does not define everyone else's experience.
DId I say it did?
Nope.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Jamest is right!

Post by Animavore » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:34 pm

Seth wrote:That's good of you to say, but somehow I doubt it's that easy. Facile denials like this appear to be little more than sophistry and evasion to me. You don't just "stop believing" in something, you replace one belief with another belief, and that belief appears to be that deities do not exist and that science is a better explanation for what you see around you.
This is not exactly how it works. When I stopped havng belief in God I didn't replace it with anything.
When I was talking about science providing better answers I wasn't even talking about god itself. I was talking about better answers for lots of other related, religious questions about the nature of mind, origins, things like that which got replaced with naturalistic ones.
I was still holding on to deistic god after I started getting into science. It was the very last thing to go. Many believers fully accept science while still believing in God. It's a trivial thing to do. But when god went it wasn't replaced by anything. There is no replacement for it I can think of. I don't know where the universe came from or anything of the sort. I don't have an answer to put in there. Just a big blank!
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Re: Jamest is right!

Post by Seth » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:35 pm

Animavore wrote:
Seth wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Seth wrote:
And if they are right, that makes their warnings and pleas charitable, altruistic and compassionate. Even if they are wrong, if they genuinely believe they are right, then their motives for attempting to persuade you to accept salvation are pure and should be respected rather than demeaned.

There's that free pass again.

Christians deserve all the demeaing they get for pulling off these scare tactics, a lot of them on their own children who they bully and terrify. And if I had a child and he came home crying and scared because some dickhead was putting the shits up him I would go over and punch his lights out.
I'd sympathize with you if it was your child.

On the other hand, to a believer, telling a child about eternal damnation as a "scare tactic" is just as rational and appropriate as telling them that they will blow the house up if they stick paper clips in the wall sockets. Warning a child against behavior that one truly believes will result in irreparable harm to them is hardly an act of evil. Just like warning an adult that they risk eternal damnation by not being saved, telling a child the same thing is an act of mercy and compassion for one who really believes that to be the case, even if it turns out they are mistaken. The motivation is important in analyzing the morality of the action.
I'm not sure I buy that. A person who rapes their own child could be doing it with the belief that they are doing it out of love.


And that mens rea will have an effect on how they are judged. If they are incapable of understanding the nature of the crime they committed, then they can be absolved by the justice system.
Psychological harm is just as bad as physical harm.
True. But beside the point.
I know there's lots of Christians who don't do the whole hell thing any more and even many who have done away with it (I certainly missed out on the fire and brimstone that the generation above me recieved), but I think people like those on the move Jesus Camp are nothing but abusive scum. I can't think of them in any other way.
The problem is that you view their indoctrination through the lens of your own beliefs and experiences (and in the case of the movie, through the lens of the filmmakers artistic intent) and you judge them based on what YOU believe to be right or wrong. However, you have no actual critically robust scientific evidence upon which to base your implied belief that hell does not exist and therefore your conclusion that telling children about hell may be abusive is not really a rational conclusion.

But my point is that insofar as the motives and intentions of those who truly believe that hell awaits their children, they are not abusing them, they are attempting to protect them against a great evil and harm that might befall them if they are not warned off of the behaviors that result in such punishment. Philosophically it's no different from telling a child that if he murders someone he'll be put to death or locked up for life by the state.

You simply do not believe that the theists are correct in their belief, and therefore you view their actions as some deliberately abusive action sadistically intended to harm children when in fact it's precisely the opposite in the minds of the theists.

And since you have no evidence that they are wrong, it's irrational of you to object to what they have to say to their own children. What if they are right and YOU are wrong? Would you feel right condemning millions of children to eternal torment by prohibiting their parents from warning them away from such dangers merely because of your mistake of fact?

It's always instructive to view the situation from the perspective of the person you're condemning before you draw conclusions.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Jamest is right!

Post by Seth » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:43 pm

Animavore wrote:
Seth wrote:That's good of you to say, but somehow I doubt it's that easy. Facile denials like this appear to be little more than sophistry and evasion to me. You don't just "stop believing" in something, you replace one belief with another belief, and that belief appears to be that deities do not exist and that science is a better explanation for what you see around you.
This is not exactly how it works. When I stopped havng belief in God I didn't replace it with anything.
Of course you did. You replaced it with a belief that believing in God wasn't useful.
When I was talking about science providing better answers I wasn't even talking about god itself. I was talking about better answers for lots of other related, religious questions about the nature of mind, origins, things like that which got replaced with naturalistic ones.
I understand this. You replaced belief in divine origins and causes with belief in nature. Nothing wrong with that.
I was still holding on to deistic god after I started getting into science. It was the very last thing to go. Many believers fully accept science while still believing in God. It's a trivial thing to do. But when god went it wasn't replaced by anything. There is no replacement for it I can think of. I don't know where the universe came from or anything of the sort. I don't have an answer to put in there. Just a big blank!
You replaced belief in God with belief in science. Unless you actually erase everything about God, including the very concept of God from your mind so that you are completely free of all such knowledge, you're merely setting aside one belief and erecting another in its place of prominence in your mind. That's the nature of belief. It's "confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof." When the subject of God comes up, you automatically assess the comparative degree of confidence between God and Science and make an unconscious determination that the degree of confidence in the existence of God as a proposition is small, or even nonexistent as compared to your degree of confidence in Science. You simply cannot avoid doing so, even if you don't know you're doing it at the time.

But the information remains in your mind and in order to keep it suppressed and keep the other belief in its place of prominence, whenever the issue of God comes to mind you inexorably and unconsciously evaluate the issue and weigh the evidence and make a decision as to which belief is stronger. You can't avoid doing so.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Jamest is right!

Post by Animavore » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:44 pm

Seth wrote:But my point is that insofar as the motives and intentions of those who truly believe that hell awaits their children, they are not abusing them, they are attempting to protect them against a great evil and harm that might befall them if they are not warned off of the behaviors that result in such punishment. Philosophically it's no different from telling a child that if he murders someone he'll be put to death or locked up for life by the state.
If they were simply saying, "Don't do this because of that" I wouldn't have much of a problem. Sure I was told that crap myself. It is the lenghts these people go through to torment their children and wind them up and have them crying and frightened like whipped dogs I have a problem with.
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