The end justifies the means

[lofuji]

I've been listening to endless eulogies for Lee Kuan Yew since he croaked yesterday. How he transformed Singapore from a third world country into one of the wealthiest in the world, and how he developed an education system that is the envy of the world. Fair enough, but in order to do that, he jailed those who disagreed with him without trial, clamped down on the media and had those guilty of minor offences flogged. And this supposedly advanced country retains the death penalty. Never mind, the end justifies the means.

[klr]

Hmm ... I suppose one question is did those some/all of those things even "need" to be done, or to the extent that they were?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

He made chewing gum illegal. Gotta get some credit for that, right?

[JimC]

From what I've read, his style of ruling was supported by a solid majority of Singaporeans. Not that that gives some form of moral absolution, but it is none the less significant.

[klr]

From what I've read, his style of ruling was supported by a solid majority of Singaporeans. Not that that gives some form of moral absolution, but it is none the less significant.

Sounds a bit like dear Vlad ...

[lofuji]

He made chewing gum illegal. Gotta get some credit for that, right?

Agreed. But even I don't suggest that illicit users should be flogged.

From what I've read, his style of ruling was supported by a solid majority of Singaporeans. Not that that gives some form of moral absolution, but it is none the less significant.

Yes, huge outpourings of grief. I've never understood this kind of reaction to the passing of an old man who was well past his sell-by date. His last public job was "minister mentor", believe it or not.

[JimC]

From what I've read, his style of ruling was supported by a solid majority of Singaporeans. Not that that gives some form of moral absolution, but it is none the less significant.

Sounds a bit like dear Vlad ...

With at least somewhat less of a tendency for territorial expansion...

[mistermack]

That Hitler fellow did a good job in Germany too, with a little bit of dictating.
He certainly made the trains run on time.

[JimC]

I am very annoyed if our buses are late.

Obviously, the Jews are to blame.

[mistermack]

I am very annoyed if our buses are late.

Obviously, the Jews are to blame.

Very selfish people.
Hoarding all those spectacles and false teeth.

[Rum]

For better or worse I doubt that Singapore would have coalesced as single political entity without Lee Kuan Yew at the helm. The place was populated by Indians. Malays, Chinese Malays and Chinese with no motivation to unite under one banner as it were. Democracy would almost certainly have failed back in the 50s and 60s.

[Hermit]

this supposedly advanced country retains the death penalty.

He made chewing gum illegal. Gotta get some credit for that, right?

Agreed. But even I don't suggest that illicit users should be flogged.

It does justify the retention of the death penalty, though.

[Rum]

Should have mentioned that Newsnight last night had (of all the twats they could have invited!) Henry Kissinger, to talk about Lee and rather more specifically about the pros and cons of autocracy in some circumstances. He was remarkably lucid for someone who is more or less dead.

[mistermack]

I think the facts behind dictatorship are pretty obvious.

The more backward and diverse the country, the more it needs a dictator.
The more modern and homogeneous, the better democracy works.

But of course, you gamble with a dictator, that he will be well-meaning. And that's a big gamble to take.
Pointing to poxy little places like Singapore, and inferring that dictatorship is a good thing, is far too simplistic.
Singapore thrived by being a convenient little neutral place tucked in between bigger entities.
It can't be a model for the whole world. Just like Hong Kong or Switzerland, it lives off being a convenient neutral spot. It only works if it's in the perfect place, and it's a rarity.

I don't think Hong Kong needed a dictator.

[lofuji]

I don't think Hong Kong needed a dictator.

I've always put down Hong Kong's success to a mixture of British pragmatism (touch base policy) and Chinese hard work and ambition. It's only where it is because it's one of the finest natural harbours in the world, and it just happened to develop alongside one of the largest countries in the world. It also had a massive crackdown on corruption in the 1970s (compare and contrast with Macau, with its focus on gambling). As you say, part of Singapore's success is down to its location on the Malacca Straits, which is effectively the only viable connection for shipping between the Pacific and Indian Oceans. Personally, I prefer Hong Kong, but then I live there.