The rich pay their "fair share"...

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Re: The rich pay their "fair share"...

Post by piscator » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:14 am

Seth wrote:
piscator wrote:
Seth wrote:
Labor is a marketplace, just like any other commodity. ...Strawmen. Just so stories. Shifted goalposts. Etc...

Here's your problem: Labor is not a commodity. Labor is people.
Wrong. Labor is the input of force to a specific purpose. Industrial robots perform labor. Humans perform labor. Guide dogs perform labor. Circus animals perform labor.


You're about as likely to write a paycheck as you are to short labor futures on the Comex, so pick your own definition for commodity and make yourself happy. It's not like it means anything. :coffee:

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Re: The rich pay their "fair share"...

Post by Hermit » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:51 am

Ultimately, industrial robots, guide dogs, circus animals and a whole lot of other things that perform tasks for us are the result of human labour.
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Re: The rich pay their "fair share"...

Post by piscator » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:23 am

Hermit wrote:Ultimately, industrial robots, guide dogs, circus animals and a whole lot of other things that perform tasks for us are the result of human labour.

Skilled labor at that. People doing jobs it takes years to learn and the input of many other skilled people to develop proficiency. Definitely a 2-way street to employ skilled people.

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Re: The rich pay their "fair share"...

Post by mistermack » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:36 pm

What the fuck has Greece or Argentina's woes got to do with Marxism?

It's to do with spending more money than you've got. Governments borrowing and splashing the money about to buy votes. Where does Marxism come into that? It's a failure of capitalism.

People able to borrow money, with other people liable for it. A definite recipe for disaster, in some countries.
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Re: The rich pay their "fair share"...

Post by piscator » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:00 pm

mistermack wrote:What the fuck has Greece or Argentina's woes got to do with Marxism?

It's to do with spending more money than you've got. Governments borrowing and splashing the money about to buy votes. Where does Marxism come into that? It's a failure of capitalism.

It could be a failure of credit default swaps and other derivatives.

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Re: The rich pay their "fair share"...

Post by JimC » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:11 pm

In some ways, it's a broader failure of the Greek social structure and democratic process, with an apparent inability to competently use legal processes to reduce corruption, ensure tax is paid and ensure that the state bureaucratic apparatus is at least marginally competent.
It's not so much a failure of capitalism as a whole, but a poor fit between state apparatus and fiscal control.
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Re: The rich pay their "fair share"...

Post by mistermack » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:41 pm

JimC wrote:In some ways, it's a broader failure of the Greek social structure and democratic process, with an apparent inability to competently use legal processes to reduce corruption, ensure tax is paid and ensure that the state bureaucratic apparatus is at least marginally competent.
It's not so much a failure of capitalism as a whole, but a poor fit between state apparatus and fiscal control.
You say ''apparent inability''. I would say, obvious unwillingness.

The mechanisms are all there. All they need is a responsible attitude, like the Germans have.

That's why they have to suffer. National attitudes need to change. A bit of reality is the only thing that will make that happen.
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Re: The rich pay their "fair share"...

Post by Seth » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:40 pm

mistermack wrote:What the fuck has Greece or Argentina's woes got to do with Marxism?
What they spend it on and why is what links it to Marxism.
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Re: The rich pay their "fair share"...

Post by JimC » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:47 pm

Seth wrote:
mistermack wrote:What the fuck has Greece or Argentina's woes got to do with Marxism?
What they spend it on and why is what links it to Marxism.
It might link it to a welfare state mentality, quite possibly an excessive one, but there is no evidence of the Greek state wanting to control the means of production in the name of the workers, which is the true meaning of marxism...
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Re: The rich pay their "fair share"...

Post by Seth » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:57 pm

JimC wrote:In some ways, it's a broader failure of the Greek social structure and democratic process, with an apparent inability to competently use legal processes to reduce corruption, ensure tax is paid and ensure that the state bureaucratic apparatus is at least marginally competent.
It's not so much a failure of capitalism as a whole, but a poor fit between state apparatus and fiscal control.
It's about centralized control and planning, which is an essential component of state socialism. An applicable label is "liberal fascism." Marxist state socialism assumes that all planning and control must come from the central government, and therefore the central government must be overwhelmingly large in order to perform all these "services." The inevitable result is bureaucratic bloat and featherbedding. The population of bureaucrats and their minions explodes as corruption and bribery become the way things get done. This is particularly obvious in Greece, where a simple expansion of a restaurant into an unoccupied neighboring retail space requires approvals from two dozen different bureaucrats and board and plenty of payoffs to inspectors and those who approve applications.

State socialism always becomes a kleptocracy because the central government is so complex, so huge, so bureaucratically inept that the left hand literally never knows what the right hand is doing, and if one does something corrupt, both hands work to cover it up because the bureaucracy has become its own corrupt living organism with a Darwinian will to survive by predating on the proletarian masses.

The proletariat becomes nothing more than a food source for the central government, which must become ever-more authoritarian and brutal as the desire to work is leached out of the working class, who become the dependent class, who must be either pacified with government-provided benefits or controlled with police and military force when they become unruly.

"The State" becomes its own reason for existence and anything that preserves the power of the state becomes acceptable to the bureaucracy. "The People" cease to exist as the author of all power and authority exercised by government and become the slaves of the State whose purpose is to do as the State says or be liquidated as disruptive and "counterrevolutionary" blights on the State's supreme authority.

In Greece, this is exactly what happened, but unlike most other liberal fascist states Greece has not had the balls to impose the kind of fascistic controls required to cow the populace into obedience, so Greece ended up with a two-layer society. On the surface it's liberal-fascist State Socialism with strong central planning, but underneath it's quite Libertarian in that there is an entire sub-culture that rejects the central planning and goes on about it's own business while largely ignoring the dictates of the State, and by refusing to pay the taxes the State needs to keep its bureaucrats employed.

The conflict is between the dependent class, which includes both government bureaucrats, unionized workers, and those on public welfare, and the productive class, which is pretty much everyone else, who have no desire or intention of supporting the bloated bureaucracy any more than possibly avoid without going to jail.

Greece is unusual in that the central government does not appear to be strong enough to implement military force, the most common method of protecting the State's existence and income, to brutalize and terrorize the populace and crush the underground economy.
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Re: The rich pay their "fair share"...

Post by Seth » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:20 pm

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:
mistermack wrote:What the fuck has Greece or Argentina's woes got to do with Marxism?
What they spend it on and why is what links it to Marxism.
It might link it to a welfare state mentality, quite possibly an excessive one, but there is no evidence of the Greek state wanting to control the means of production in the name of the workers, which is the true meaning of marxism...
That's end-state Communism, which is the ultimate goal of Marxism. But Marxism never reaches that state, and never will. It always ends at State Socialism, where government may not technically "own" the means of production, but it effectively owns it because of the degree of central planning control it exercises over all production. That's why Jonah Greenberg calls it "liberal fascism." State Socialism is fundamentally no different than "right wing fascism" except in its theoretical root ideology.

Nazi Germany is a prime example. It's very name, "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers' Party" demonstrates the link between so-called "right wing" fascism and left-wing Marxism.

Marxism, however, isn't just about the State owning the means of production. it's a spectrum of increasingly centralized and authoritarian control Marx thought necessary to create the ideal "classless" society of Communism. Marx alleged that in order to destroy the "fascistic" and "bourgeois" system of monarchism he was born into it was necessary to purge society of those counterrevolutionary elements, which required a strong central government prepared to take on the task of planning the economy in accordance with Marx's notions of human behavior, which were and remain completely wrong.

Socialism is merely a way-station on the path to utopian communism in Marx's plan, and the ends justified the brutal and repressive central control of society means that Marx felt were needed to purify the proletariat and free it from the clutches of the bourgeoisie merchant class and the aristocracy.

He never intended socialism to be an end-state sociopolitical system, but reality reared it's ugly head and no Marxist state has ever proceeded beyond authoritarian liberal-fascist State Socialism to utopian Communism. Thus, while the philosophical objective of socialism might be theoretical "ownership of the means of production in the name of the workers" the reality is quite different, and actually manifests as centralized State control of the means of production (and everything else) in the name of the State, and for the benefit of the State, which means for the benefit of the privileged class of Marxists who run the State, with the "workers" being nothing more than the means to that end. Anything the workers get by way of "to each according to his need" is never anything more than what is minimally required to keep them from rioting and overthrowing the government.

And that's exactly what's about to happen in Venezuela any day now. Maduro is on the verge of armed revolution because the people are tired of wiping their asses with leaves and not having any food, which occurred because he and his predecessor tried vainly to pander to the proletariat by nationalizing industries and spending money with abandon on "the poor," the result of which has been the flight of capital from Venezuela that crippled their only real source of wealth: it's oil.
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Re: The rich pay their "fair share"...

Post by JimC » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:34 pm

Seth wrote:

...Marxist state socialism assumes that all planning and control must come from the central government...
And yet Greece is basically a capitalist state, with small business and corporations running agriculture, manufacturing, building, banking etc. etc...
It is certainly not a centrally planned economy, in any sense of the word. It may well be true that government bureaucracy, besides being corrupt, puts excessive red tape in the way of business (although still unable to get them to pay tax at meaningful levels), but this is a fault, to one degree or another, of governments the world over.

There is lots to validly criticise about Greece, without having to incorrectly use the term "marxism"
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Re: The rich pay their "fair share"...

Post by Seth » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:46 pm

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

...Marxist state socialism assumes that all planning and control must come from the central government...
And yet Greece is basically a capitalist state, with small business and corporations running agriculture, manufacturing, building, banking etc. etc...
It is certainly not a centrally planned economy, in any sense of the word. It may well be true that government bureaucracy, besides being corrupt, puts excessive red tape in the way of business (although still unable to get them to pay tax at meaningful levels), but this is a fault, to one degree or another, of governments the world over.

There is lots to validly criticise about Greece, without having to incorrectly use the term "marxism"
Greece is a capitalist state smothered in a blanket of Marxist socialism. Capitalism exists (or existed...it's mostly gone now) in Greece in spite of the Marxist roots of the State bureaucracy, not because of it. The State wants to centrally control everything, but it's too weak to be very effective in making that happen. What's happened is that the Libertarian in your run-of-the-mill Greek is stronger than the socialist propaganda, so the average Greek simply ignores the system that funds the dependent class (mostly the bureaucrats in Greece's case) and goes on with life using the quite-Libertarian capitalistic underground society.

Socialism cannot endure unless one of two conditions applies: the majority of the society are members of the dependent class who are psychologically bound to the central government and it's trough and who will therefore support their means of living no matter what; or the central government has the necessary liberally-fascistic military and police power to suppress rebellion and liquidate those who refuse to obey.

Greece is a prime example of a country that's ripe for Libertarianism because the central government is so incredibly inept that it cannot even enforce it's will on the average Greek. So they just ignore the bureaucrats and get on with life. The only fly in the ointment is the dependent class, mostly bureaucrats and unionists, who want to preserve their privilege and incomes. In a proper Libertarian society, such instigators of force and fraud would either be shunned and ignored or, if necessary, killed in self-defense, thus purging society of those who would make their way by stealing from others.

But that requires an armed citizenry, which unfortunately I don't think Greece has. Too bad.
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Re: The rich pay their "fair share"...

Post by klr » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:50 pm

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

...Marxist state socialism assumes that all planning and control must come from the central government...
And yet Greece is basically a capitalist state, with small business and corporations running agriculture, manufacturing, building, banking etc. etc...
It is certainly not a centrally planned economy, in any sense of the word. It may well be true that government bureaucracy, besides being corrupt, puts excessive red tape in the way of business (although still unable to get them to pay tax at meaningful levels), but this is a fault, to one degree or another, of governments the world over.

There is lots to validly criticise about Greece, without having to incorrectly use the term "marxism"
If it is centrally planned, someone is doing a very bad job of it. :shifty:

But I agree with the general point. Oh, and while there are parties and politicians in Greece (and in many other European countries) that call themselves Marxist in some shape or form, they are usually very far from Seth's fantasy vision of "Marxists".
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Re: The rich pay their "fair share"...

Post by Seth » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:57 pm

klr wrote:
JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

...Marxist state socialism assumes that all planning and control must come from the central government...
And yet Greece is basically a capitalist state, with small business and corporations running agriculture, manufacturing, building, banking etc. etc...
It is certainly not a centrally planned economy, in any sense of the word. It may well be true that government bureaucracy, besides being corrupt, puts excessive red tape in the way of business (although still unable to get them to pay tax at meaningful levels), but this is a fault, to one degree or another, of governments the world over.

There is lots to validly criticise about Greece, without having to incorrectly use the term "marxism"
If it is centrally planned, someone is doing a very bad job of it. :shifty:
That's rather the point. Centrally planned economies always do a very bad job of it. That's why centrally planned economies are bad.
But I agree with the general point. Oh, and while there are parties and politicians in Greece (and in many other European countries) that call themselves Marxist in some shape or form, they are usually very far from Seth's fantasy vision of "Marxists".
Thanks for confirming my thesis. If it walks like a Marxist, and it talks like a Marxist, and it regulates like a Marxist, then it's a Marxist. It is true that Marxists come in varying flavors and degrees of intensity however. But the root ideology is the same in every case.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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