Far-left, Anti-Austerity Party Triumphs in Greek Election.

[Seth]

Employees are employees, they need protection from their employer, government or free enterprise, so they need a union.

There may need to be some restrictions on the industrial action they can take, but otherwise, Seth, you are pissing against the wind as always...

That's all well and good for the private sector as long as the government keeps out of it.

But public employees? No way. Their employers are the people and their employers should be free to hire or fire them as they see fit without any interference. That's the price you pay for working for the government. If you don't like the conditions of employment, then get a job in the private sector.

[piscator]

So public employees are not part of the free enterprise system which is why they have no 1st Amendment rights?

[Seth]

So public employees are not part of the free enterprise system which is why they have no 1st Amendment rights?

They have First Amendment rights, but those rights are limited while they are working for the government. If they don't like those restrictions, they can leave government service any time they like.

[piscator]

I thank the sound judgement of others for making the kind of world where you don't make those decisions, Seth. You strike me as the kind of man who would misuse any authority he was given, no matter how mean and petty that authority was.
Of course you'd instinctively fear labor unions. But every objection and problem you've thrown up here in words has either been flat wrong and thus a product of your own ignorance, or so caricatured by your ideology as to be some sort of fantasy rendering of the actual situation. I understand you're not much for probing self-examination since your ideology set up and cured, but at some point in the few productive years you have left, you might want to look to see if your economic theories have benefited you economically, or not.

[JimC]

Employees are employees, they need protection from their employer, government or free enterprise, so they need a union.

There may need to be some restrictions on the industrial action they can take, but otherwise, Seth, you are pissing against the wind as always...

That's all well and good for the private sector as long as the government keeps out of it.

But public employees? No way. Their employers are the people and their employers should be free to hire or fire them as they see fit without any interference. That's the price you pay for working for the government. If you don't like the conditions of employment, then get a job in the private sector.

In your fucked up system perhaps, but not here...

[Seth]

I thank the sound judgement of others for making the kind of world where you don't make those decisions, Seth. You strike me as the kind of man who would misuse any authority he was given, no matter how mean and petty that authority was.

Go fuck yourself Piss.

Of course you'd instinctively fear labor unions.

I don't fear them, I just don't like what they've become.

But every objection and problem you've thrown up here in words has either been flat wrong and thus a product of your own ignorance, or so caricatured by your ideology as to be some sort of fantasy rendering of the actual situation.

Well, you're wrong. First of all, all the cites you gave refer to "non-union" employees who must still pay union dues. That's not who I'm referring to, although having to pay union dues when you're not in the union is a Marxist farce of monumental proportions.

I'm talking about people who are in the union, either because they were coerced into joining or joined because they legitimately wanted to. Plenty of loyal union members don't like all of the political and social positions that the big unions take these days and they object to having their dues used to support such politicking.

I understand you're not much for probing self-examination since your ideology set up and cured,

Go probe yourself up your ass with your sticks.

but at some point in the few productive years you have left, you might want to look to see if your economic theories have benefited you economically, or not.

I prefer integrity and honor (concepts you are clearly unfamiliar with, as is the case for most Marxist useful idiots) to ill-gotten gains.

Now fuck off with your ad homs.

[piscator]

"If the road you traveled brought you here, what good was the road?"

[piscator]

"If the rule you followed brought you to this, then what good is the rule?"

Closed shops are illegal in the US since Taft-Hartley.
You can receive a refund of all union contributions to anything that were allegedly withheld by invoking your Beck Rights.
A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client, so after you whack up your 1st Amendment windfall with your free enterprise Libertarian attorney, you might have enough left for Christmas dinner at Dennys.

[pErvinalia]

So public employees are not part of the free enterprise system which is why they have no 1st Amendment rights?

They have First Amendment rights, but those rights are limited while they are working for the government. If they don't like those restrictions, they can leave government service any time they like.

Or they can just live in the real world and tell you to reinsert your head up your arse.

[Warren Dew]

So public employees are not part of the free enterprise system which is why they have no 1st Amendment rights?

Generally speaking, public employees cannot possiblly be part of the free enterprise system, since they are paid from taxes extorted from the payers, rather than paid from voluntary payments.

[JimC]

So public employees are not part of the free enterprise system which is why they have no 1st Amendment rights?

Generally speaking, public employees cannot possiblly be part of the free enterprise system, since they are paid from taxes extorted from the payers, rather than paid from voluntary payments.

The word "extorted" is a very revealing emotive term in this context. Most of us grumble about paying tax, but we also realise that governments need funds for what they have to do to serve all citizens. There is room in political debate for criticism of the total tax burden, or how it is extracted, or precisely what it should be spent on, but to term it "extortion" is merely a meaningless libertarian catch-cry, contributing nothing of substance to reasoned debate.

Also, it matters not whether government employees come under the aegis of free enterprise or not. They are workers, with given conditions and a given wage, and have the right to collectively bargain with their employer about those conditions and wages. There may well need to be limitations on the industrial action options available to them, but they have every right to form associations or unions.

[pErvinalia]

In the news this morning is that Greece has rejected the latest extortion attempt from Europe. This is coming to a crunch by the end of this week / start of next week. I wonder who will blink first. Enthralling battle of ideas and morals taking place right now.

[Warren Dew]

[Greek finance minister Varoufakis] cited what he called a "splendid" proposal from the European Commission by which Greece would get four to six months credit in return for a freeze on its anti-austerity policies. He said he had been ready to sign that - but that Dijsselbloem had then presented a different, and "highly problematic", deal.

A draft of what Dijsselbloem proposed, swiftly leaked by furious Greek officials, spoke of Athens extending and abiding by its "current programme" - anathema to a government which, as Varoufakis said, was elected last month to scrap the package.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/ ... SH20150216

Can someone explain the difference between "freeze on its anti-austerity policies" and "abiding by its 'current programme'"? Or is this just a matter of wording and Varoufakis looking for a face saving way to blink?

[pErvinalia]

It does sound like the same thing.

I'm guessing a sort of "kick the can down the road" type of deal, like the silly debt ceiling thing in the US, will happen for the short-term. Basically, I think this equates to the EU half blinking, and will probably eventually end up with it fully blinking. It seems to me that the Greeks are serious about this, and there's serious support in Europe for the Eurozone project. So the only way to break this impasse eventually will be to relax the austerity measures a bit. But then, short term politics in Germany might see it cutting off it's long term nose to spite it's face.

[piscator]

So public employees are not part of the free enterprise system which is why they have no 1st Amendment rights?

Generally speaking, public employees cannot possiblly be part of the free enterprise system, since they are paid from taxes extorted from the payers, rather than paid from voluntary payments.

But government employees are paid, right? So Where do they spend their pay, Warren?

And who said the 1st Amendment right to assemble was based on economic models?