Cuts to UK Science Research and Student Grants:

Post Reply
User avatar
mistermack
Posts: 15093
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:57 am
About me: Never rong.
Contact:

Re: Cuts to UK Science Research and Student Grants:

Post by mistermack » Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:39 am

Seth wrote: The term "unalienable" in the context of rights means that no person or government has the authority to declare one's fundamental unalienable rights out of existence. Hitler declared the Jews to be animals and therefore they had no rights and therefore they could be exterminated like rats, but his declaration that Jews did not have a right to life did not alienate the Jews right to life. He merely had the present ability to infringe on their rights, and the world went to war to stop him and vindicate the right to life enjoyed by every human being on the planet, which is universally recognized by all civilized people.
Just like everybody who ever went to war does. When the US government dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I suppose they weren't ending the right to life, of hundreds of thousands of civilians, They were just ending their lives.
But funnily enough, once you've been vapourised, you no longer have a right to life.
So actually, they did alienate their right to life, by ending their lives. Just like Hitler did.
Seth wrote: No politician or elected official or national leader or despot or tyrant can simply say, "there is no right to life, and therefore I declare that I can kill anyone I want without violating their human rights." No person can (justly) say "I hereby declare that all property is the property of the state, and any property formerly belonging to individuals no longer belongs to them, but to the state." No leader can say "No person has the right to procreate and I will dole out permission to procreate as I see fit."
Yes they can. They can say all those things. Nothing can stop them.
So it boils down to, can they JUSTLY say and do those things. So rights are simply what you think is just.

Can you provide any evidence that these rights exist, outside of your, or like-minded peoples heads?
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: Cuts to UK Science Research and Student Grants:

Post by Hermit » Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:20 am

The Founding Fathers (Praise Be To The Founding Fathers and Authors of the Hallowed Constitution) and Authors of the Hallowed Constitution themselves had no objection to conscript men into the army before, during and after the American Revolutionary War. They were fully aware that this action would cause the death of a number of men who'd probably rather not die and therefore did not volunteer to be shot dead. The Founding Fathers (Praise Be To The Founding Fathers and Authors of the Hallowed Constitution) forcibly placed them into a situation where this was bound to happen. Seems to me that not even The Founding Fathers (Praise Be To The Founding Fathers and Authors of the Hallowed Constitution) considered the Right to Life to be Unalienable.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 41086
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: Cuts to UK Science Research and Student Grants:

Post by Svartalf » Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:28 am

Well, the right to Liberty was higher in their views, and a bunch of dead heroes was an acceptable cost to free a bunch of grovelling serfs...
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: Cuts to UK Science Research and Student Grants:

Post by Hermit » Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:45 pm

Svartalf wrote:Well, the right to Liberty was higher in their views, and a bunch of dead heroes was an acceptable cost to free a bunch of grovelling serfs...
Correct. So much for the notion of the unalienable right to life, though. Conscription denies it, and in implementing that policy,so did The Founding Fathers (Praise Be To The Founding Fathers and Authors of the Hallowed Constitution) and Authors of the Hallowed Constitution themselves.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: Cuts to UK Science Research and Student Grants:

Post by Seth » Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:37 pm

mistermack wrote:
Seth wrote: The term "unalienable" in the context of rights means that no person or government has the authority to declare one's fundamental unalienable rights out of existence. Hitler declared the Jews to be animals and therefore they had no rights and therefore they could be exterminated like rats, but his declaration that Jews did not have a right to life did not alienate the Jews right to life. He merely had the present ability to infringe on their rights, and the world went to war to stop him and vindicate the right to life enjoyed by every human being on the planet, which is universally recognized by all civilized people.
Just like everybody who ever went to war does. When the US government dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I suppose they weren't ending the right to life, of hundreds of thousands of civilians, They were just ending their lives.
But funnily enough, once you've been vapourised, you no longer have a right to life.
So actually, they did alienate their right to life, by ending their lives. Just like Hitler did.
War is hell. The Japs got what they had coming, and if you want to blame someone, blame Hirohito.

Can you provide any evidence that these rights exist, outside of your, or like-minded peoples heads?
Come try to take them away from me and see how real they are.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74218
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Cuts to UK Science Research and Student Grants:

Post by JimC » Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:17 pm

Seth wrote:

Come try to take them away from me and see how real they are.
All that means is you are saying you will fight tenaciously in defence of your life (with a boastful sub-text that you're sure you'd win...)

But if you happen to lose, your phrasing implies that mistermack will have shown you have no rights...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
piscator
Posts: 4725
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:11 am
Location: The Big BSOD
Contact:

Re: Cuts to UK Science Research and Student Grants:

Post by piscator » Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:21 pm

So the Geneva Accords and the UDHR are unenforceable?

User avatar
mistermack
Posts: 15093
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:57 am
About me: Never rong.
Contact:

Re: Cuts to UK Science Research and Student Grants:

Post by mistermack » Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:40 pm

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

Come try to take them away from me and see how real they are.
All that means is you are saying you will fight tenaciously in defence of your life (with a boastful sub-text that you're sure you'd win...)

But if you happen to lose, your phrasing implies that mistermack will have shown you have no rights...
He's full of shit. It's all in his head, just like his rights.
It doesn't add up, because it's just a juvenile attempt to support what he wants to believe.
Start with your conclusion, and work towards it, ignoring all contradicting evidence, like any good christian.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: Cuts to UK Science Research and Student Grants:

Post by Seth » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:33 am

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

Come try to take them away from me and see how real they are.
All that means is you are saying you will fight tenaciously in defence of your life (with a boastful sub-text that you're sure you'd win...)

But if you happen to lose, your phrasing implies that mistermack will have shown you have no rights...
No, he will have shown that he can overcome my rights in the most primitive sense. In the advanced sense, others (society) will (or may) act to defend my rights on my behalf, even after I'm dead.

Conflating the argument over the origin of natural, organic rights with modern usage is not probative. As I've said many times before, the Organic Rights are derived from organic (natural) law and natural behavior. it's not a 1-to-1 correlation and it's not a black and white issue. My argument merely challenges the notion that rights are only derived from or granted by government.

Try not to torture the logic so much, you might get in trouble with the Hague.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: Cuts to UK Science Research and Student Grants:

Post by Seth » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:35 am

JimC wrote: All that means is you are saying you will fight tenaciously in defence of your life (with a boastful sub-text that you're sure you'd win...)
Well, I've got the guns and he does not, so I'm pretty confident.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests