Sexual molestation?

[Blind groper]

http://skeptoid.com/mobile/4446

I am going to get myself hated by the feminists on this forum!

But a speculation occurs to me. This is based on what I know of human nature, and especially what I know of human memory and how fallible it is. We know after much research that eye witness trestimony to the police and the courts is shockingly unreliable. There are cases where the wrong people have been executed as the result of very confidently expressed eye witness accounts. Witnesses see a crime committed in broad daylight, with every chance to identify the culprit, and they then point the finger (totally sincerely) at exactly the wrong person!

We also know that memory is even less reliable when that memory is old. It gets even more unreliable if there is a personal agenda making the memory unacceptable to the person remembering.

And now we come to sexual molestation. Celebrity style.

Many male celebrities have extremely active sex lives. The pop star 'Sting' once boasted of having sex with more than 1000 women. The Beatles used to assign a staff member to stand at the stage door after concerts, to select girls to sleep with each of the four. Girls and young women have been known to boast of losing their virginity to Ringo, or John Lennon, or whatever.

So let me take an unnamed celebrity (no, I am not naming Bill Cosby or Rolf Harris) and accept that this guy is having sex with women left, right and centre. Naughty boy. Smack smack, but not illegal. All the sex quite consensual.

Let us imagine, for example, that this guy shags 1000 women. Most of those women are quite happy, and even proud of their experience. But maybe 1 in 10 of those women later feel shame, and regret doing it. Over time (several decades) the memory of that event gets warped and twisted, which is quite normal for memories that are old, and regretted. Now, 1 in 5 of those women who are regretful have warped their memories so much that they no longer 'remember' the sex as being consensual, but 'remember' it as rape. There is nothing weird about this. Memory is malleable and changeable. To twist it over time to this extent is not in the least bit unusual.

So my question is this. If an ageing celebrity is confronted by a woman who says that 20 to 30 years earlier, he raped her, how credible is this accusation? Not suggesting for a moment that she is lying. But I am suggesting there is a really big chance her memory has betrayed her (and him) and she is now suffering from a delusion.

If one woman has such an accusation publicised, how long before a bunch of other women whose memories are likewise altered by time will come forward with the same accusation?

I am not suggesting anything wrong with women. This memory distortion is common with both genders. But could this be the reason why ageing celebrities of the male persuasion are prone to such accusations?

[JimC]

The scenario is certainly possible, but so are scenarios where nasty arseholes used their prestige to coerce girls, some of them below the age of consent, to have sex. It does make the issue of legal action long after the event very difficult...

[pErvinalia]

Now, 1 in 5 of those women who are regretful have warped their memories so much that they no longer 'remember' the sex as being consensual, but 'remember' it as rape. There is nothing weird about this. Memory is malleable and changeable. To twist it over time to this extent is not in the least bit unusual.

Oh really, Dr Groper? You might need to provide some evidence or robust reasoning for this.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Now, 1 in 5 of those women who are regretful have warped their memories so much that they no longer 'remember' the sex as being consensual, but 'remember' it as rape. There is nothing weird about this. Memory is malleable and changeable. To twist it over time to this extent is not in the least bit unusual.

Oh really, Dr Groper? You might need to provide some evidence or robust reasoning for this.

And change the habit of a lifetime?

[pErvinalia]

I'm awaiting something along the lines of "Steven Pinker said...."

[cronus]

After 995 these celebs might go a bit experimental? a bit deviant? and some might go weird with sex after the first hundred? what seems more likely?

[AvtomatKalashnikova]

Now, 1 in 5 of those women who are regretful have warped their memories so much that they no longer 'remember' the sex as being consensual, but 'remember' it as rape. There is nothing weird about this. Memory is malleable and changeable. To twist it over time to this extent is not in the least bit unusual.

Oh really, Dr Groper? You might need to provide some evidence or robust reasoning for this.

Man is take time for medical school, I take his word on some things. Also, is Dr. Groper have time to examine strange itchy bumps on scrotum of Avtomat?

[Blind groper]

http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue%20 ... versky.htm

The reference above is from Stanford university, which I think is pretty reputable, and discusses a number of research results, all of which show the fallibility of human memory.

For example : it is shown that when a person discusses a past event, from memory, each time that memory is modified slightly in the direction that the person wishes to remember the event. The classic example is the fisherman who catches a 30 cm trout. Each time he describes the catch, the size increases a bit. A few years later he remember quite clearly that the trout was 50 cms long. The change is quite sincere, and his descriptions of a 50 cm long trout are not lies, because he believes it firmly.

For a woman, who is ashamed of having sex with a celebrity, to then undergo a memory modification in the direction of forced sex, thereby removing herself from guilt, is entirely within what we know is quite normal with modifiable memory.

If you do not believe me, then read the reference above.

[pErvinalia]

http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue%20 ... versky.htm

The reference above is from Stanford university, which I think is pretty reputable, and discusses a number of research results, all of which show the fallibility of human memory.

For example : it is shown that when a person discusses a past event, from memory, each time that memory is modified slightly in the direction that the person wishes to remember the event. The classic example is the fisherman who catches a 30 cm trout. Each time he describes the catch, the size increases a bit. A few years later he remember quite clearly that the trout was 50 cms long. The change is quite sincere, and his descriptions of a 50 cm long trout are not lies, because he believes it firmly.

For a woman, who is ashamed of having sex with a celebrity, to then undergo a memory modification in the direction of forced sex, thereby removing herself from guilt, is entirely within what we know is quite normal with modifiable memory.

If you do not believe me, then read the reference above.

It's known that memory is modified every time it is recalled, as you (and the reference, I assume) mention. But to say that it's "quite normal" or not "the least bit unusual" that someone can invent a memory of rape is a strong claim that needs specific evidence. Just because you think it is possible doesn't mean anything. Do you have a reference that discusses this particular issue for you to be able to confidently make this claim?

[Blind groper]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Loftus

REvo

The reference above is to the doyenne of such studies, Dr. Elizabeth Loftus, who has carried out a great deal of research work into malleable memory is a range of situations. This includes sexual matters, where women have accused totally innocent men of sexual crimes, where the accusers firmly believe what they claim, due to false memories.

There was an article in Scientific American a few years back (sorry, I cannot tell you exactly which issue) in which a fascinating story was presented. I remember the story, because it was a human tragedy.

This young woman was feeling assorted neuroses and anxieties and went to a counsellor. The counsellor assumed the root cause was past sexual molestation (idiot counsellor!). He questioned her at great length with strongly directed questions. She ended up "remembering" her Baptist pastor father repeatedly raping her, and even forcing her to have his baby aborted. End result was the father went to prison. However, she was later examined by a doctor for an unrelated medical condition, and found to be still a virgin.

That case involved a moronic counsellor implanting false memories by directed questioning, but memory can be modified by a wide range of influences, including self modification.

As I said, read my references.

[pErvinalia]

Yeah I think I remember that case. I'll check out this Loftus bird.

[Blind groper]

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/gue ... -memories/

Though I cannot remember exactly which SciAm issue the original article was in, here is one that is on a related topic. Implanting false memories.

[JimC]

It seems that fake memories of rape typically (although not always) require a particular type of shonky counselling...

[piscator]

90cm

[JimC]

Fish raping fantasies...