Here come the UK SWAF teams!

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Re: Here come the UK SWAF teams!

Post by klr » Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:25 pm

Seth wrote:
JimC wrote: However, to a degree, we have been quibbling over semantics. Essentially, most of us in this thread accept a certain amount more control by an elected government over individuals than you do, seat belts and helmets being the classic examples. However, the whole thing is on a spectrum; I've said several times that it is important to minimise the interference of private choices by governments, but not by an ideological position, instead on pragmatic grounds in a case-by-case process.
I don't disagree that we "accept" things like this, but that doesn't address the philosophical and ethical questions involved. The Jews "accepted" being rounded up and put on trains based on the lies of the Nazis, only to find themselves soaping up with stone soap right before the Zyklon B was dropped in.

If we don't challenge and question the authority of government to rule our lives, we get the sort of totalitarianism that we deserve.

What you're saying is that we should just be good proletarians and accept that the government knows what's best for us and not question the wisdom of our masters. I find that sort of mindset to be quite alarming and very, very sad.
Ah, the Nazi angle. It was inevitable I suppose. Godwin's Law comes through again. :tup:

Isn't it odd how most of us are happy to "challenge" our governments via the democratic purposes, public campaigns, the mass media, etc.?
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Re: Here come the UK SWAF teams!

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:26 am

laklak wrote:Seth and rEv in a trailer in Oz, what a concept. Screw learned papers, this is the next international smash hit reality show. Only way it could get better is if it was a trailer park in Iran.
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Re: Here come the UK SWAF teams!

Post by Seth » Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:43 am

klr wrote:
Seth wrote:
JimC wrote: However, to a degree, we have been quibbling over semantics. Essentially, most of us in this thread accept a certain amount more control by an elected government over individuals than you do, seat belts and helmets being the classic examples. However, the whole thing is on a spectrum; I've said several times that it is important to minimise the interference of private choices by governments, but not by an ideological position, instead on pragmatic grounds in a case-by-case process.
I don't disagree that we "accept" things like this, but that doesn't address the philosophical and ethical questions involved. The Jews "accepted" being rounded up and put on trains based on the lies of the Nazis, only to find themselves soaping up with stone soap right before the Zyklon B was dropped in.

If we don't challenge and question the authority of government to rule our lives, we get the sort of totalitarianism that we deserve.

What you're saying is that we should just be good proletarians and accept that the government knows what's best for us and not question the wisdom of our masters. I find that sort of mindset to be quite alarming and very, very sad.
Ah, the Nazi angle. It was inevitable I suppose. Godwin's Law comes through again. :tup:
Well, it's a perfect and pertinent exemplar of my thesis, so why not.
Isn't it odd how most of us are happy to "challenge" our governments via the democratic purposes, public campaigns, the mass media, etc.?
Not odd at all, but before one can march on the capitol people need to discuss the issue so as to understand it. I thought that's what we were doing until you tried to dismiss the whole thread by insisting that we all be obedient little proletarians.
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Re: Here come the UK SWAF teams!

Post by JimC » Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:49 am

Seth wrote:

...you tried to dismiss the whole thread by insisting that we all be obedient little proletarians...
How do you logically deduce that from klr's post?

It seems that anything other than complete adherence to the entire libertarian ideology is always going to be described by you in that manner. You do cling hard to your party line - I'm sure you would have done well in local party meetings in the suburbs of Moscow in the 50's... :tea:
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Re: Here come the UK SWAF teams!

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:38 am

Yeah, there's very little difference between Marxism/Leninism and Libertarianism.
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Re: Here come the UK SWAF teams!

Post by JimC » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:59 am

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

...you tried to dismiss the whole thread by insisting that we all be obedient little proletarians...
How do you logically deduce that from klr's post?

It seems that anything other than complete adherence to the entire libertarian ideology is always going to be described by you in that manner. You do cling hard to your party line - I'm sure you would have done well in local party meetings in the suburbs of Moscow in the 50's... :tea:
rEvolutionist wrote:Yeah, there's very little difference between Marxism/Leninism and Libertarianism.
You know, comrade, that young chap over there, Sethski I think his name is, burns with a pure ideological flame...

Ye, I noticed. Open a file on him - they can be dangerous...

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Re: Here come the UK SWAF teams!

Post by laklak » Sat Jan 03, 2015 7:47 am

Long as I'm on top of the fucking heap I don't care what you call it.

From "The Collected Sayings of Commissar Lak".
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Here come the UK SWAF teams!

Post by MrJonno » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:44 pm

laklak wrote:Long as I'm on top of the fucking heap I don't care what you call it.

From "The Collected Sayings of Commissar Lak".
What happens if you don't ever expect to be at the top , my politics are based on the fact that currently i'm middle class and my quality of life is likely to go up somewhere between 0 and 2% next year

However the chances of it going up by more than 2% is very close to zero (ie I would need to win the lottery), the chances of my life decreasing significantly is far higher illness, unemployment divorce ,a simple accident.

Logically I'm more concerned about what happens if things go worse than expected than if they go better.

Basically its a acceptance that the 'American dream' is bollocks, most of us will never be rich no matter how hard we work and I am far more concerned about not falling to the bottom than about rising to the top
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Re: Here come the UK SWAF teams!

Post by klr » Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:53 pm

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

...you tried to dismiss the whole thread by insisting that we all be obedient little proletarians...
How do you logically deduce that from klr's post?

It seems that anything other than complete adherence to the entire libertarian ideology is always going to be described by you in that manner. You do cling hard to your party line - I'm sure you would have done well in local party meetings in the suburbs of Moscow in the 50's... :tea:
Actually, I think he'd have been deported to the Gulag as a disruptive malcontent.
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Re: Here come the UK SWAF teams!

Post by Seth » Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:57 pm

MrJonno wrote:
Basically its a acceptance that the 'American dream' is bollocks, most of us will never be rich no matter how hard we work and I am far more concerned about not falling to the bottom than about rising to the top
And that's everybody else's problem why, exactly?
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Re: Here come the UK SWAF teams!

Post by piscator » Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:08 am

MrJonno wrote:
laklak wrote:Long as I'm on top of the fucking heap I don't care what you call it.

From "The Collected Sayings of Commissar Lak".
What happens if you don't ever expect to be at the top , my politics are based on the fact that currently i'm middle class and my quality of life is likely to go up somewhere between 0 and 2% next year

However the chances of it going up by more than 2% is very close to zero (ie I would need to win the lottery), the chances of my life decreasing significantly is far higher illness, unemployment divorce ,a simple accident.

Logically I'm more concerned about what happens if things go worse than expected than if they go better.

Basically its a acceptance that the 'American dream' is bollocks, most of us will never be rich no matter how hard we work and I am far more concerned about not falling to the bottom than about rising to the top


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Re: Here come the UK SWAF teams!

Post by MrJonno » Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:38 am

Seth wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
Basically its a acceptance that the 'American dream' is bollocks, most of us will never be rich no matter how hard we work and I am far more concerned about not falling to the bottom than about rising to the top
And that's everybody else's problem why, exactly?
Because I get the vote basically (could go on about morality but right and wrong in the end aren't that important merely keeping the masses happy)
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Re: Here come the UK SWAF teams!

Post by Seth » Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:51 am

MrJonno wrote:
Seth wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
Basically its a acceptance that the 'American dream' is bollocks, most of us will never be rich no matter how hard we work and I am far more concerned about not falling to the bottom than about rising to the top
And that's everybody else's problem why, exactly?
Because I get the vote basically (could go on about morality but right and wrong in the end aren't that important merely keeping the masses happy)
Tautology.
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Re: Here come the UK SWAF teams!

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:14 am

What is a "SWAF" anyway? :dunno:
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Re: Here come the UK SWAF teams!

Post by piscator » Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:27 am

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