Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God

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Re: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God

Post by MiM » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:33 am

rainbow wrote:
Blind groper wrote: It may not even be the only universe. String theory suggests that E500 universes exist, and each has different physical constants. With a number that large (indistinguishable from infinity), everything must happen somewhere.
...including God.
Seths example of a Shakespeare novel is actually what distinguishes E500 or even E500*E500 from infinity, and the difference is huge.

If you put 500 random digits in a row, you already can do it in 1E500 ways. with 28 characters in the set a 345 characters long text is enough. So there is no way a random process anywhere can ever stumble upon much more than a short sentence of Shakespeare, even less create the letters to write it in and the man to write it. Unless we go to true infinities.
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Re: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God

Post by Seth » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:52 pm

piscator wrote:
Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Blind groper wrote:This is another example of the "improbability" argument for God. Basically, what it says in any of a million variations is that things are too complex to have happened at random, therefore God.

There are two major flaws in those arguments.
1. Things are not exactly random. Evolution, for example, involves selection.
2. Even the most improbable events become statistical certainties when there are enough trials. Since the universe is 12.8 billion years old and contains 40,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 star systems, even the most unlikely events are going to happen somewhere, and probably many, many times.

It may not even be the only universe. String theory suggests that E500 universes exist, and each has different physical constants. With a number that large (indistinguishable from infinity), everything must happen somewhere.
Another tool to counter it is to imagine a situation where one flipped a coin 500 billion times. The odds of getting the resultant sequence of tosses are spectacularly minute. Does that mean Goddidit? Of course not, you just physically did it.
This falsely assumes that your flips were not influenced or directed by some other entity that you cannot perceive.

To assume an extra unperceivable entity is unnecessary.
This is the major intellectual flaw in God denialism (a sect of Atheism). Just because something is deemed by you or someone else to be "unnecessary" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
If I shoot at you 500billion times, are you going to shoot back at me, or some entity you can't even falsify, much less perceive? :fp:
Well, if you shoot at me 500 billion times and I am still around to shoot back, I'm going to assume that some entity was deliberately deflecting YOUR bullets from hitting me. Even YOU can't be that bad a shot.

Just because you can't "falsify" something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or did not happen. It might just mean you're a deaf, dumb and blind idiot without enough brain power to do the research properly.
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Re: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God

Post by hackenslash » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:21 pm

Seth wrote:This is the major intellectual flaw in God denialism (a sect of Atheism). Just because something is deemed by you or someone else to be "unnecessary" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
If that's what you deem an intellectual flaw, no wonder you think you've ever won an argument.
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Re: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God

Post by rainbow » Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:55 am

MiM wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Blind groper wrote: It may not even be the only universe. String theory suggests that E500 universes exist, and each has different physical constants. With a number that large (indistinguishable from infinity), everything must happen somewhere.
...including God.
Seths example of a Shakespeare novel is actually what distinguishes E500 or even E500*E500 from infinity, and the difference is huge.

If you put 500 random digits in a row, you already can do it in 1E500 ways. with 28 characters in the set a 345 characters long text is enough. So there is no way a random process anywhere can ever stumble upon much more than a short sentence of Shakespeare, even less create the letters to write it in and the man to write it. Unless we go to true infinities.
...so God did it?
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Re: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God

Post by MiM » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:00 am

rainbow wrote:
MiM wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Blind groper wrote: It may not even be the only universe. String theory suggests that E500 universes exist, and each has different physical constants. With a number that large (indistinguishable from infinity), everything must happen somewhere.
...including God.
Seths example of a Shakespeare novel is actually what distinguishes E500 or even E500*E500 from infinity, and the difference is huge.

If you put 500 random digits in a row, you already can do it in 1E500 ways. with 28 characters in the set a 345 characters long text is enough. So there is no way a random process anywhere can ever stumble upon much more than a short sentence of Shakespeare, even less create the letters to write it in and the man to write it. Unless we go to true infinities.
...so God did it?
Only if you think Shakespeare was God.
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Re: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God

Post by Animavore » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:43 pm

Here's a good take-down on this article by a rabbi.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-geo ... 92000.html
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Re: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God

Post by Seth » Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:55 pm

rainbow wrote:
MiM wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Blind groper wrote: It may not even be the only universe. String theory suggests that E500 universes exist, and each has different physical constants. With a number that large (indistinguishable from infinity), everything must happen somewhere.
...including God.
Seths example of a Shakespeare novel is actually what distinguishes E500 or even E500*E500 from infinity, and the difference is huge.

If you put 500 random digits in a row, you already can do it in 1E500 ways. with 28 characters in the set a 345 characters long text is enough. So there is no way a random process anywhere can ever stumble upon much more than a short sentence of Shakespeare, even less create the letters to write it in and the man to write it. Unless we go to true infinities.
...so God did it?
If there is an infinity of universes in which "everything must happen somewhere" then somewhere there is a universe with God in it. And statistically speaking it's just as likely to be this one as any other.
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Re: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God

Post by JacksSmirkingRevenge » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:15 pm

...but then, god wouldn't have created the universe. The universe would have created god. :ask:
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Re: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God

Post by Animavore » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:28 pm

Lol.
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Re: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God

Post by Seth » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:34 pm

Animavore wrote:Here's a good take-down on this article by a rabbi.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-geo ... 92000.html
I'd like to address this article one section at a time, indeed one paragraph at a time as is my practice.
Rabbi Geoffrey A. Mitelman

Founding Director, Sinai and Synapses

Sorry, Science Doesn't Make a Case for God. But That's OK.
Posted: 12/29/2014 7:20 pm EST Updated: 12/29/2014 7:59 pm EST

Last week, Eric Metaxas wrote a piece for the Wall Street Journal entitled "Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God." In it, he argues that the parameters for human life are so precise that they are indicators of God's existence. As he phrases it:

Today there are more than 200 known parameters necessary for a planet to support life -- every single one of which must be perfectly met, or the whole thing falls apart... The odds against life in the universe are simply astonishing.

Yet here we are, not only existing, but talking about existing. What can account for it? Can every one of those many parameters have been perfect by accident? At what point is it fair to admit that science suggests that we cannot be the result of random forces? Doesn't assuming that an intelligence created these perfect conditions require far less faith than believing that a life-sustaining Earth just happened to beat the inconceivable odds to come into being?

A fine-tuned universe is a compelling argument for God. It's also deeply problematic.

Why? Two reasons.

1. Science is always changing. Science is in constant flux. New discoveries are made. New insights arise. New paradigms overturn previous ways of thinking.
This paragraph does not address the claim at all. "Science" may be in constant flux, but what that really means is that human scientific knowledge is constantly changing. What does not change are the physics underlying that scientific knowledge. The flux of science is not a flux in the universe or the physical laws that determine how things work, it is merely our ignorance being dispelled bit by bit.
So if we base our religious outlook on scientific findings, what will happen to our theology when the science changes?
The obvious answer is that should this occur, our religious outlook and theology will change as well. This appears to be an argument from a Rabbi in support of the notion that God is "supernatural" and therefore beyond science, and that science cannot therefore say anything about God's existence or the nature of God. I disagree with the Rabbi because I see nothing in the physics of the universe that preclude God from existing, however it is that one may choose to define God.

Science tells us many things about the physics of the universe, but it hasn't yet told us all there is to know. This existing ambiguity and uncertainty absolutely leaves room in the universe for God. The Rabbi intimates that theology is fixed and that the (presumably) biblical truths he adheres to are immutable and perfect, and that to attack that foundation is to set all of theology on a foundation of sand. This is an understandable position coming from a Rabbi, but it is neither logical nor rational. If mankind's understanding of God is incomplete or faulty, and science shows us this, then that new knowledge leads only deeper into the mystery that is inherent in the very concept of God. Just as we do not try to teach first-graders the complexities of algebra, God may not choose to teach mankind about the full nature of God until we are prepared for that knowledge.

Note that I am not maintaining that this is the case, I merely examine the statements of the good Rabbi for logical and rational consistency and strength and attempt to explain how that reasoning might be in error.

Think about what happened to religion when the Copernican revolution occurred, or when Darwin's On the Origin of Species was published. They upset the apple cart, and forced religion to change. Most people either denied these findings and held onto their deeply-held beliefs, or used these findings to reject religion entirely.

So what would happen if, say, we discover that the parameters for life are not quite as amazing as they seemed? Or if we discovered that humanity was not unique in the universe? If you were using science to support your religious outlook, unless you have a very sophisticated theology, you'd be in deep trouble, and would need to do quite a bit of mental gymnastics.
These paragraphs suggest that the dispelling of ignorance about the nature of the universe(s) and God makes the understanding of that nature and God more difficult and complex. This may well be true, or it might lead to an understanding of great simplicity that mankind simply does not now know. What if science discovers the existence of God and God's true nature and finds it to be a simple and elegant basis for everything residing somewhere in, on, above, behind or beneath the "quantum foam?" Or perhaps on an adjacent plane universe?

The good Rabbi seems to be arguing that complicating the question of the existence and nature of God by adding things like other life, other civilizations, other interpretations of God is somehow wrong, and that a simplistic, understandable version of God, such as that described in the Bible or Torah must therefore be the correct and complete theology. I find this to be anthropocentrically recondite. I understand that an increasingly complex understanding of the nature and existence of God may make God less accessible to those of small knowledge, and that those who are purveyors of theology seek to make the knowledge understandable to the masses, but this is merely putting the cart before the horse for reasons of theological convenience. The truth, however, is the truth, however complex or difficult to understand it may be.
That's why scientists and Christians Francis Collins and Karl Giberson warn about using fine-tuning as an argument for God. As they say:

... [T]he fine-tuning argument must not be too quickly fashioned into an argument for the existence of God. Like all apologetic arguments, it can be undermined by new discoveries and weakened by broad theological conversations. In the latter category we note that the fine-tuning of the universe is just as necessary to produce cockroaches as humans. Here we would add insights from theology that humans are made in the image of God and are a far more reasonable goal of cosmic fine-tuning than are cockroaches. But this goes beyond the science. (The Language of Science and Faith, 195)

Yes, it truly is amazing that all of the needed requirements for life on Earth are so precise. But science is a search for an accurate understanding of our world, which means that it can change. And if we're basing our view of God on the latest scientific research, we're going to have a very fragile theology.
These paragraphs are flawed because both the good Rabbi and Messrs. Collins and Gilberson incorrectly assume that any "fine tuning" being performed by God is being done strictly for the benefit of human beings...and not cockroaches. This is anthropocentric hubris I'm afraid.

Even in my small understanding of the Bible, I know that the claim is that God created the heavens and the earth and every creature in or on either and that he gave mankind dominion over all the creatures. This merely indicates to me that God assigned mankind to be the stewards of creation, not that creation was created only for mankind. Therefore, if fine tuning were involved, the universe was fine-tuned for the benefit of all creatures, from blue-green alge to dinosaurs to lions to human beings. There is nothing in either physics or theology that renders this impossible, and therefore the fine tuning argument cannot be so facilely dismissed. That it might in some way put mankind on a par with cockroaches insofar as the purpose and intent of God may simply be a hard truth mankind needs to face.

Perhaps God created the dinosaurs, or created the conditions amenable to their evolution, and became disappointed with the experiment and nudged an asteroid with his mighty, if insubstantial finger and wiped out the dinosaurs in order to give mammals an opportunity to continue the experiment.

Admittedly this demeans the importance of humanity to that of just another lab experiment, but in truth there is no reason to believe that, particularly in a fine-tuned universe, there was ever any other point to it all. To insist that mankind is the penultimate paradigm of creation, just one step below God him/her/itself, is little more than intellectual anthropogenic hubris as well.

The simple, logical, rational fact is that none of this dithering, by science or theology, says anything definitive or absolute about the existence or nature of God. We, and by that I mean every creature in the universe, simply don't know. And we will not know for certain of the nature and existence of God until our knowledge of the universe(s) is perfect. I expect that to take a while longer.

Until then, God remains a mystery that is neither confirmed nor denied by theology or science.
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Re: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God

Post by piscator » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:45 pm

Seth wrote:
Until then, the widget remains a mystery that is neither confirmed nor denied by theology or science.

Do you know what the word "Sophistry" means? Do you think you are good at it?

Do you think your audience here is unaware of the necessary burden of proof for any assertion, including an assertion of one or more widgets?

Do you think, "[The Widget] Remains a mystery neither confirmed or denied" is the same as, "Science Increasingly Makes the Case for widgets"?

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Re: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:39 am

Seth wrote:
rainbow wrote:
MiM wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Blind groper wrote: It may not even be the only universe. String theory suggests that E500 universes exist, and each has different physical constants. With a number that large (indistinguishable from infinity), everything must happen somewhere.
...including God.
Seths example of a Shakespeare novel is actually what distinguishes E500 or even E500*E500 from infinity, and the difference is huge.

If you put 500 random digits in a row, you already can do it in 1E500 ways. with 28 characters in the set a 345 characters long text is enough. So there is no way a random process anywhere can ever stumble upon much more than a short sentence of Shakespeare, even less create the letters to write it in and the man to write it. Unless we go to true infinities.
...so God did it?
If there is an infinity of universes in which "everything must happen somewhere" then somewhere there is a universe with God in it. And statistically speaking it's just as likely to be this one as any other.
Everything NATURAL must happen. God is supernatural, allegedly. So, no.
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Post by piscator » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:47 am

JacksSmirkingRevenge wrote:
If there is an infinity of universes in which "everything must happen somewhere" then somewhere there is a universe with God in it. And statistically speaking it's just as likely to be this one as any other.
...but then, god wouldn't have created the universe. The universe would have created god. :ask:
Damn son. Robert Johnson wish he had that shuffledown with a stinger... :awesome:

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Re: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God

Post by Seth » Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:46 am

piscator wrote:
Seth wrote:
Until then, the widget remains a mystery that is neither confirmed nor denied by theology or science.

Do you know what the word "Sophistry" means?
Of course. Do you know what the word "Socratic" means? How about "maieutic"?
Do you think you are good at it?
When the occasion calls for it I'm an expert at all of them.
Do you think your audience here is unaware of the necessary burden of proof for any assertion, including an assertion of one or more widgets?
What "necessary burden of proof?" When speaking philosophically, as we are, the assertion is taken at face value and the challenger is free to refute the reasoning with reasoning of his own. You're trying to apply a scientific burden of proof to a philosophical and theological discussion, which is improper and pointless.
Do you think, "[The Widget] Remains a mystery neither confirmed or denied" is the same as, "Science Increasingly Makes the Case for widgets"?
Nope. But the "fine tuning" argument for the existence of God remains valid in spite of the good Rabbi's attempt to refute it. Nothing in physics suggests that God could NOT have fine-tuned the universe (or just earth) to suit human life. The best science has to offer is that both God and "fine tuning" are "unnecessary" because, theoretically, everything can be "explained" by "science" and without "supernatural" involvement.

But the term "supernatural" as used by would-be scientists in discussing theology and God is simply an evasive shorthand for "I don't understand it, so I'm going to call it supernatural." I've discussed this particular Atheist rationalization several times already, but if you want to do it again, I will.

The long and short of it is that nothing we know about the physical universe, including the meta-physical theories like "quantum foam" and "membrane universes" in any way preclude the existence of God. Indeed, there is much more empirical and historical evidence pointing towards the existence of God than there is against it. Just because that evidence doesn't satisfy some "scientific" skeptics doesn't make it inexorably untrue.

As I've said before, we simply do not know, and that's all anyone can rationally say about the existence or non-existence of God.
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Re: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God

Post by Seth » Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:51 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
Everything NATURAL must happen. God is supernatural, allegedly. So, no.
I like your evasive "allegedly" quibble. It shows that you are now unsure of your argument. Just because you think that someone else thinks that God is supernatural doesn't make it so. You are expressing the Atheist's Fallacy, which uses the circular reasoning of "God cannot exist because believers believe God is supernatural and nothing supernatural can exist, therefore God cannot exist."

The refutation of your claim is, quite obviously, "Theists are wrong and God is entirely natural but poorly understood by theists." For you to base your argument on the premise that theists are invariably and infallibly correct about the existence and nature of God is to commit the Atheist's Fallacy.
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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