Hermit wrote:Seth wrote:Pragmatist...socialist...communist...Marxist. All describe the same mindset, which is that the individual is less important than the collective and therefore the collective rules the individual. That's diametrically opposed to Libertarianism.
No middle path at all?
Either you believe that the individual is sovereign or you believe the collective is sovereign. There is no middle ground there.
What this means is that either you believe that the individual has sovereign, inherent and unalienable rights (which does not include all rights) which even the largest majority cannot do away with, or you believe that the needs of the many may outweigh the needs of the few regardless of the nature of the imposition on the individual.
Under individualism the individual has, by way of example, the right to life, liberty and property, none of which may be infringed upon for reasons other than as punishment or compensation for wrongdoing by the individual himself. Therefore the individual may not be stripped of any of the above merely because the collective expresses a desire to do so.
Under collectivism, the individual is not sovereign and he owns nothing by right, not even his own life, which may be disposed of by the collective as it deems necessary to the health and protection of the collective. Therefore he may be stripped of liberty, property and even his life if it serves the needs of the collective, regardless of whether or not the individual has done something to warrant being stripped of his rights, like initiating force or fraud on others.
The core philosophy is what determines the legitimacy of the political system. All forms of socialism are fundamentally collectivist in nature and therefore (as MrJonno is wont to say) rights are granted by the collective, to the extent that the collective decides is appropriate for the individual. This philosophy is inherently evil because it makes a slave of everyone, without exception, and makes them the chattels of the collective, to be used, misused and disposed of as the majority demands.
The principles of individualism inform Libertarianism and some forms of socialistic society, but only in Libertarianism are the rights of the individual to be "left alone" by the collective absent some initiation of force or fraud respected absolutely.
But at the end of the day, every form of socialism is based in the principle that the individual is the property of the state and that the state determines what freedoms and liberties and property the individual is permitted to enjoy. Whether and to what extent the individual has a say in those decision varies from ideology to ideology in the collectivist sphere, but in the end it's slavery all the way down.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
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