Immigrants make you richer.

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Seth
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Seth » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:57 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Blind groper wrote:Like Seth's delusion that owning guns will stop a government being oppressive. I have this image in mind of Seth and his buddies charging a government and military establishment, waving their assorted small arms, until they encounter the heavy weaponry of the military.
You couldn't be more wrong. ;)

Take that paradise of Libertarianism, Somalia. Nearly everyone walks around with an AK47, and there is no Big Government telling people what to do.

You can even be a pirate, if you want. :smoke:
Except it's not a Libertarian culture. Obviously they use force and fraud constantly, therefore they cannot be Libertarian. Nice use of the strawman fallacy though. :tup:
Seth wrote: "It is MY obligation, and/or the right of my contemporaries and community to defend my title against an initiation of force or fraud."

and...

"Title settles on he who occupies the land when the previous owner dies."

As usual, your story is full of holes. According to your past pronouncements it's the obligation of the property holder to defend the title against force or fraud, and if they can't (eg. die in the attempt or lack thereof), then they forfeit title. I.e, force or fraud isn't a critical problem, it's the inability to defend against it that is the problem.

AKA, he who has the biggest gun in libertarianism wins.
The key is that one is not permitted to initiate force or fraud upon another. The use of force, up to and including deadly force, in defense of your property or your safety is completely permissible and in fact is strongly encouraged, as is banding together with others in voluntary association to prevent or punish an initiation of force or fraud by someone against a member of the community. This is where you lose it when you try to understand Libertarianism. It's not all about the "rugged individual" standing alone against everyone else, it's exactly the opposite. What's missing from Libertarianism is the element of involuntary compulsion by the community that forces the individual to do some deed or sacrifice some labor or property for the benefit of others without his prior freely-given consent. This does not mean that the individual cannot or will not participate in such community efforts. Not at all. It merely means that Libertarians are satisfied to let the natural instincts of charity, altruism and rational self interest guide the individual in his participation in community. And if the individual does not wish to participate in community efforts, then the individual is not permitted to enjoy the benefits of those efforts by those who have contributed.

The dynamic of the natural human need to be included in a community and the community's ability to deny that social interaction to persons who do not act in socially acceptable ways is considered by Libertarians to be sufficient motivation to acceptable behavior, and the only punishment for unsocial behavior (not including the initiation of force or fraud) is exclusion from social interaction. In other words, "shunning" and withdrawal of all forms of interaction, including barter and trade.

If you act antisocially in a Libertarian society, you won't be allowed to buy anything from anyone. Not food, not clothing, not shelter...nothing. You wont' be allow to use the streets or the parks or anything else the community provides to members. You choose to live outside the community, so you must do so, absolutely.

This principle is based on the belief that NO ONE can compel another to labor on their behalf (which includes barter and trade) without that person's freely given consent. Therefore, if I don't like the way you act in town and you are unwilling to contribute to community projects and defense, then I am completely within my rights to deny any association whatsoever with you, and so is every other person and merchant in town.

If that shunning and inability engage in commerce isn't enough to amend your behavior, then you get to be the "rugged individual" living in a cave somewhere, foraging for nuts and berries...and perhaps starving to death while freezing in the dark...which is the fate that befits those who are intractably antisocial.

However, if you participate in the community as a sane, rational adult would, then you are welcomed and get to enjoy the social benefits of living in community.

It's really quite simple. I wish you were able to understand it, it's a beautiful social philosophy.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Blind groper » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:57 am

Seth

It is not a beautiful social philosophy. It is a recipe for disaster. Do you really think it has not been tried? It has been tried over and over again, and the results are dreadful. It is called tribalism.

When you get into the idea of a community with no overlord, such as a democratic government and police force, you inevitably get crime run rampant.

We see this in the small tribes of the Amazon and in Papua New Guinea. Individuals then go out of their way to gain personal advantage by attacking those not part of their community. And those outside the community attack right back again. Social set ups like this result in an enormous murder rate. Some tribes have been shown by anthropologists to lose up to 20% of their male population every generation to murder. Such murders are usually a member of the next tribe laying an ambush.

The solution to this is what I have previously described as "Leviathon theory". The Leviathon is a very large and very powerful overriding and governing body that makes damn sure no one gets away with violent behaviour.

The enemy of the Leviathon is the libertarian who thinks he has the "right" to perpetrate violence against those he sees as offending against him. Since his perception is inevitably flawed, this means injustice, and excessively violent behaviour by many people. It often leads to vendetta behaviour also.

This is why 'taking justice into your own hands' is discouraged by everyone with half a brain.

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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:10 am

That's all fantastic, Seth, but it doesn't gel with your actual statements. Your assertion that property theft ceases to be theft once the person who owned the property (or anyone that they passed it on to) dies - which you have done concerning Native Indian dispossession - doesn't fit in with this concept that initiation of force/fraud is inherently wrong. It's clearly not wrong if one manages to kill (or dis-empower) everyone who might have "legitimate" claim on some property.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Seth » Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:11 am

rEvolutionist wrote:That's all fantastic, Seth, but it doesn't gel with your actual statements. Your assertion that property theft ceases to be theft once the person who owned the property (or anyone that they passed it on to) dies - which you have done concerning Native Indian dispossession - doesn't fit in with this concept that initiation of force/fraud is inherently wrong. It's clearly not wrong if one manages to kill (or dis-empower) everyone who might have "legitimate" claim on some property.
Again, the principle at work is that force or fraud can only be initiated against the actual possessor/owner of the property. Some descendant or other interested party who had no ownership rights at the time the force or fraud was committed is not a victim of that wrongdoing and cannot therefore challenge the title to the property after the actual victims have passed away. It's a version of the rule against perpetuities which says that things like trusts cannot have perpetual existence precisely because the dead man's hand cannot be permitted to control property because, well, he'd dead.

Tribal lineage is not seen as sufficient justification for claiming property lost long ago, for the reasons I've already mentioned having to do with the ability of later generations to live together in peace under settled title to lands rather than warring endlessly over disputed claims from hundreds of years ago.

And yes, initiating force or fraud is inherently wrong, but it is up to the contemporaries of those who do such things to right those wrongs and punish those who do such things at the time they happen, not leave it to generations unborn to do it some indeterminate time in the future.

Dispossessing the grandchildren of the malefactor of "their" land long after Grandpa and everyone else involved is dead is just as immoral and irrational as throwing the grandchildren in jail for the wrongdoing of their elder.

There has to be a way to settle title disputes with finality, otherwise no title is certain and endless conflict results. It's fundamentally no different from statutes of limitations on the prosecution of certain crimes. If you, the victim, sit on your rights for too long, you may be denied the justice you seek at a later date. This policy encourages people with disputes who have been injured in some way to deal with it promptly, while the evidence and witnesses are available and the events fresh in everyone's minds.

Time fades memories, documents are lost, agreements forgotten, and determining the truth of any matter becomes increasingly difficult or impossible the longer the dispute goes on unresolved. It is good public policy to tell plaintiffs and victims that if they fail to act, their failure to act can result in them losing any claim they might have. It's unfair to the accused to wait years or decades to bring a complaint. The accused is presumed to be innocent unless and until proven guilty in court, and in the case of property, title must be firmly settled within a reasonable time so that the future passing of title to others is not forever clouded.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Seth » Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:24 am

Blind groper wrote:Seth

It is not a beautiful social philosophy. It is a recipe for disaster. Do you really think it has not been tried? It has been tried over and over again, and the results are dreadful. It is called tribalism.
Yes it's been tried and no, it's not dreadful. The US was quite Libertarian for the first 150 years of its existence. It wasn't until the Progressives and Marxists came along about 1900 that things changed dramatically for the worse.
When you get into the idea of a community with no overlord, such as a democratic government and police force, you inevitably get crime run rampant.
Who said there is no government or police? Not me.
We see this in the small tribes of the Amazon and in Papua New Guinea. Individuals then go out of their way to gain personal advantage by attacking those not part of their community. And those outside the community attack right back again. Social set ups like this result in an enormous murder rate. Some tribes have been shown by anthropologists to lose up to 20% of their male population every generation to murder. Such murders are usually a member of the next tribe laying an ambush.
Nonsense.
The solution to this is what I have previously described as "Leviathon theory". The Leviathon is a very large and very powerful overriding and governing body that makes damn sure no one gets away with violent behaviour.
We call that "despotism and tyranny" around here because power corrupts, and "Leviathon" (sic) power corrupts absolutely. By the way, it's "Leviathan"
The enemy of the Leviathon is the libertarian who thinks he has the "right" to perpetrate violence against those he sees as offending against him. Since his perception is inevitably flawed, this means injustice, and excessively violent behaviour by many people. It often leads to vendetta behaviour also.
Wrong. How many times do I have to tell you that Libertarianism does not sanction the initiation of force or fraud. Nor does it permit the individual to "perpetrate violence against those he sees as offending against him."

Force is authorized only as a self-defense measure against the initiation of force by another. Nor is the self-defense exemption unlimited or plenary. It's no different than it is today. If you use force in self defense you must do so both proportionately and justifiably. This strawman/red herring notion you have that Libertarians have a right to be hair-trigger killers at the slightest insult is entirely vacuous and ignorant.

Libertarian societies have courts, and police, and jails to adjudicate and punish the initiation of force or fraud just like we do today.
This is why 'taking justice into your own hands' is discouraged by everyone with half a brain.
Libertarianism has nothing to do with "taking justice into your own hands." Nothing whatever. You simply refuse to distinguish between self-defense in the heat of the moment to preserve life and protect property and the administration of justice by a court. A Libertarian is no more authorized to dispense "justice" than any person today. He is merely allowed to defend himself against an attack by another, just as we are allowed to do so today.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by mistermack » Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:18 am

I'm beginning to wonder who's trolling and who's biting.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by rainbow » Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:53 am

Seth wrote:
Blind groper wrote:Seth

It is not a beautiful social philosophy. It is a recipe for disaster. Do you really think it has not been tried? It has been tried over and over again, and the results are dreadful. It is called tribalism.
Yes it's been tried and no, it's not dreadful. The US was quite Libertarian for the first 150 years of its existence. It wasn't until the Progressives and Marxists came along about 1900 that things changed dramatically for the worse.
Yep it was real good in them old days. You could just shoot some Injuns and take their land.
Then them pesky Marxist Big Government types come along and spoil the fun.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by piscator » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:07 pm

CHAPTER XX


The jute mills failed of its agreement to increase my pay to a dollar and a quarter a day, and I, a free-born American boy whose direct ancestors had fought in all the wars from the old pre-Revolutionary Indian wars down, exercised my sovereign right of free contract by quitting the job.

I was still resolved to settle down, and I looked about me. One thing was clear. Unskilled labour didn't pay. I must learn a trade, and I decided on electricity. The need for electricians was constantly growing. But how to become an electrician? I hadn't the money to go to a technical school or university; besides, I didn't think much of schools. I was a practical man in a practical world. Also, I still believed in the old myths which were the heritage of the American boy when I was a boy.

A canal boy could become a President. Any boy who took employment with any firm could, by thrift, energy, and sobriety, learn the business and rise from position to position until he was taken in as a junior partner. After that the senior partnership was only a matter of time. Very often—so ran the myth—the boy, by reason of his steadiness and application, married his employer's daughter. By this time I had been encouraged to such faith in myself in the matter of girls that I was quite certain I would marry my employer's daughter. There wasn't a doubt of it. All the little boys in the myths did it as soon as they were old enough.

So I bade farewell for ever to the adventure-path, and went out to the power plant of one of our Oakland street railways. I saw the superintendent himself, in a private office so fine that it almost stunned me. But I talked straight up. I told him I wanted to become a practical electrician, that I was unafraid of work, that I was used to hard work, and that all he had to do was look at me to see I was fit and strong. I told him that I wanted to begin right at the bottom and work up, that I wanted to devote my life to this one occupation and this one employment.

The superintendent beamed as he listened. He told me that I was the right stuff for success, and that he believed in encouraging American youth that wanted to rise. Why, employers were always on the lookout for young fellows like me, and alas, they found them all too rarely. My ambition was fine and worthy, and he would see to it that I got my chance. (And as I listened with swelling heart, I wondered if it was his daughter I was to marry.)

"Before you can go out on the road and learn the more complicated and higher details of the profession," he said, "you will, of course, have to work in the car-house with the men who install and repair the motors. (By this time I was sure that it was his daughter, and I was wondering how much stock he might own in the company.)

"But," he said, "as you yourself so plainly see, you couldn't expect to begin as a helper to the car-house electricians. That will come when you have worked up to it. You will really begin at the bottom. In the car-house your first employment will be sweeping up, washing the windows, keeping things clean. And after you have shown yourself satisfactory at that, then you may become a helper to the car-house electricians."

I didn't see how sweeping and scrubbing a building was any preparation for the trade of electrician; but I did know that in the books all the boys started with the most menial tasks and by making good ultimately won to the ownership of the whole concern.

"When shall I come to work?" I asked, eager to launch on this dazzling career.

"But," said the superintendent, "as you and I have already agreed, you must begin at the bottom. Not immediately can you in any capacity enter the car-house. Before that you must pass through the engine-room as an oiler."

My heart went down slightly and for the moment as I saw the road lengthen between his daughter and me; then it rose again. I would be a better electrician with knowledge of steam engines. As an oiler in the great engine-room I was confident that few things concerning steam would escape me. Heavens! My career shone more dazzling than ever.

"When shall I come to work?" I asked gratefully.

"But," said the superintendent, "you could not expect to enter immediately into the engine-room. There must be preparation for that. And through the fire-room, of course. Come, you see the matter clearly, I know. And you will see that even the mere handling of coal is a scientific matter and not to be sneered at. Do you know that we weigh every pound of coal we burn? Thus, we learn the value of the coal we buy; we know to a tee the last penny of cost of every item of production, and we learn which firemen are the most wasteful, which firemen, out of stupidity or carelessness, get the least out of the coal they fire." The superintendent beamed again. "You see how very important the little matter of coal is, and by as much as you learn of this little matter you will become that much better a workman—more valuable to us, more valuable to yourself. Now, are you prepared to begin?"

"Any time," I said valiantly. "The sooner the better."

"Very well," he answered. "You will come to-morrow morning at seven o'clock."

I was taken out and shown my duties. Also, I was told the terms of my employment—a ten-hour day, every day in the month including Sundays and holidays, with one day off each month, with a salary of thirty dollars a month. It wasn't exciting. Years before, at the cannery, I had earned a dollar a day for a ten-hour day. I consoled myself with the thought that the reason my earning capacity had not increased with my years and strength was because I had remained an unskilled labourer. But it was different now. I was beginning to work for skill, for a trade, for career and fortune, and the superintendent's daughter.

And I was beginning in the right way—right at the beginning. That was the thing. I was passing coal to the firemen, who shovelled it into the furnaces, where its energy was transformed into steam, which, in the engine-room, was transformed into the electricity with which the electricians worked. This passing coal was surely the very beginning-unless the superintendent should take it into his head to send me to work in the mines from which the coal came in order to get a completer understanding of the genesis of electricity for street railways.

Work! I, who had worked with men, found that I didn't know the first thing about real work. A ten-hour day! I had to pass coal for the day and night shifts, and, despite working through the noon-hour, I never finished my task before eight at night. I was working a twelve-to thirteen-hour day, and I wasn't being paid overtime as in the cannery.

I might as well give the secret away right here. I was doing the work of two men. Before me, one mature able-bodied labourer had done the day shift and another equally mature able-bodied labourer had done the night-shift. They had received forty dollars a month each. The superintendent, bent on an economical administration, had persuaded me to do the work of both men for thirty dollars a month. I thought he was making an electrician of me. In truth and fact, he was saving fifty dollars a month operating expenses to the company.

But I didn't know I was displacing two men. Nobody told me. On the contrary, the superintendent warned everybody not to tell me. How valiantly I went at it that first day. I worked at top speed, filling the iron wheelbarrow with coal, running it on the scales and weighing the load, then trundling it into the fire-room and dumping it on the plates before the fires.

Work! I did more than the two men whom I had displaced. They had merely wheeled in the coal and dumped it on the plates. But while I did this for the day coal, the night coal I had to pile against the wall of the fire-room. Now the fire-room was small. It had been planned for a night coal-passer. So I had to pile the night coal higher and higher, buttressing up the heap with stout planks. Toward the top of the heap I had to handle the coal a second time, tossing it up with a shovel.

I dripped with sweat, but I never ceased from my stride, though I could feel exhaustion coming on. By ten o'clock in the morning, so much of my body's energy had I consumed, I felt hungry and snatched a thick double-slice of bread and butter from my dinner pail. This I devoured, standing, grimed with coal-dust, my knees trembling under me. By eleven o'clock, in this fashion I had consumed my whole lunch. But what of it? I realised that it would enable me to continue working through the noon hour. And I worked all the afternoon. Darkness came on, and I worked under the electric lights. The day fireman went off and the night fireman came on. I plugged away.

At half-past eight, famished, tottering, I washed up, changed my clothes, and dragged my weary body to the car. It was three miles to where I lived, and I had received a pass with the stipulation that I could sit down as long as there were no paying passengers in need of a seat. As I sank into a corner outside seat I prayed that no passenger might require my seat. But the car filled up, and, half-way in, a woman came on board, and there was no seat for her. I started to get up, and to my astonishment found that I could not. With the chill wind blowing on me, my spent body had stiffened into the seat. It took me the rest of the run in to unkink my complaining joints and muscles and get into a standing position on the lower step. And when the car stopped at my corner I nearly fell to the ground when I stepped off.

I hobbled two blocks to the house and limped into the kitchen. While my mother started to cook, I plunged into bread and butter; but before my appetite was appeased, or the steak fried, I was sound asleep. In vain my mother strove to shake me awake enough to eat the meat. Failing in this, with the assistance of my father she managed to get me to my room, where I collapsed dead asleep on the bed. They undressed me and covered me up. In the morning came the agony of being awakened. I was terribly sore, and, worst of all, my wrists were swelling. But I made up for my lost supper, eating an enormous breakfast, and when I hobbled to catch my car I carried a lunch twice as big as the one the day before.

Work! Let any youth just turned eighteen try to out-shovel two man-grown coal-shovellers. Work! Long before midday I had eaten the last scrap of my huge lunch. But I was resolved to show them what a husky young fellow determined to rise could do. The worst of it was that my wrists were swelling and going back on me. There are few who do not know the pain of walking on a sprained ankle. Then imagine the pain of shovelling coal and trundling a loaded wheelbarrow with two sprained wrists.

Work! More than once I sank down on the coal where no one could see me, and cried with rage, and mortification, and exhaustion, and despair. That second day was my hardest, and all that enabled me to survive it and get in the last of the night coal at the end of thirteen hours was the day fireman, who bound both my wrists with broad leather straps. So tightly were they buckled that they were like slightly flexible plaster casts. They took the stresses and pressures which hitherto had been borne by my wrists, and they were so tight that there was no room for the inflammation to rise in the sprains.

And in this fashion I continued to learn to be an electrician. Night after night I limped home, fell asleep before I could eat my supper, and was helped into bed and undressed. Morning after morning, always with huger lunches in my dinner pail, I limped out of the house on my way to work.

I no longer read my library books. I made no dates with the girls. I was a proper work beast. I worked, and ate, and slept, while my mind slept all the time. The whole thing was a nightmare. I worked every day, including Sunday, and I looked far ahead to my one day off at the end of a month, resolved to lie abed all that day and just sleep and rest up.

The strangest part of this experience was that I never took a drink nor thought of taking a drink. Yet I knew that men under hard pressure almost invariably drank. I had seen them do it, and in the past had often done it myself. But so sheerly non-alcoholic was I that it never entered my mind that a drink might be good for me. I instance this to show how entirely lacking from my make-up was any predisposition toward alcohol. And the point of this instance is that later on, after more years had passed, contact with John Barleycorn at last did induce in me the alcoholic desire.

I had often noticed the day fireman staring at me in a curious way. At last, one day, he spoke. He began by swearing me to secrecy. He had been warned by the superintendent not to tell me, and in telling me he was risking his job. He told me of the day coal-passer and the night coal-passer, and of the wages they had received. I was doing for thirty dollars a month what they had received eighty dollars for doing. He would have told me sooner, the fireman said, had he not been so certain that I would break down under the work and quit. As it was, I was killing myself, and all to no good purpose. I was merely cheapening the price of labour, he argued, and keeping two men out of a job.

Being an American boy, and a proud American boy, I did not immediately quit. This was foolish of me, I know; but I resolved to continue the work long enough to prove to the superintendent that I could do it without breaking down. Then I would quit, and he would realise what a fine young fellow he had lost.

All of which I faithfully and foolishly did. I worked on until the time came when I got in the last of the night coal by six o'clock. Then I quit the job of learning electricity by doing more than two men's work for a boy's wages, went home, and proceeded to sleep the clock around.

Fortunately, I had not stayed by the job long enough to injure myself—though I was compelled to wear straps on my wrists for a year afterward. But the effect of this work orgy in which I had indulged was to sicken me with work. I just wouldn't work. The thought of work was repulsive. I didn't care if I never settled down. Learning a trade could go hang. It was a whole lot better to royster and frolic over the world in the way I had previously done. So I headed out on the adventure-path again, starting to tramp East by beating my way on the railroads.


-- Jack London, John Barleycorn

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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by laklak » Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:14 pm

Work sucks.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Svartalf » Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:34 pm

Yeah, that's why we left the club didn't we?
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Seth » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:36 pm

mistermack wrote:I'm beginning to wonder who's trolling and who's biting.
Glad to hear it, that means I'm doing my job properly. Thanks.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Seth » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:37 pm

rainbow wrote:
Seth wrote:
Blind groper wrote:Seth

It is not a beautiful social philosophy. It is a recipe for disaster. Do you really think it has not been tried? It has been tried over and over again, and the results are dreadful. It is called tribalism.
Yes it's been tried and no, it's not dreadful. The US was quite Libertarian for the first 150 years of its existence. It wasn't until the Progressives and Marxists came along about 1900 that things changed dramatically for the worse.
Yep it was real good in them old days. You could just shoot some Injuns and take their land.
Then them pesky Marxist Big Government types come along and spoil the fun.
Willful ignorance you demonstrate, oh young one... :yoda:
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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laklak
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by laklak » Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:19 pm

Svartalf wrote:Yeah, that's why we left the club didn't we?
Most assuredly.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Blind groper
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Blind groper » Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:34 pm

Seth

Your libertarian utopia suffers from exactly the same problem as the communist utopia. That is : people do not behave that way.

The communist ideal society has everyone giving what they can and taking what they need. Sadly, in reality, people take more than they need, and give less than they should. And so the communist ideal collapses in a screaming heap!

The libertarian ideal also requires people to behave properly, and they do not. Take your suggestion that violence is only for self defense. Riiiight!
The truth is that every person has a different idea of what constitutes self defense. According to FBI figues, there are 4,000 murders each year in the USA that come from two people in a heated argument, and then one pulling out a hand gun and shooting the other one dead. I would be willing to bet that most of those murderers would claim it was self defense.

The problem, Seth, is that humans suffer from self delusion. They will do awful things and call it self defense. Being part of a libertarian society will not stop people doing that. Give everyone the means of killing, and a hell of a lot will do just that - kill! The USA gives that means by allowing anyone to buy a hand gun (there are no restrictions on the second hand market), and there are 8,000 hand gun murders each year.

Your libertarian utopia requires people to behave, and without coercion, people do not behave.

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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Seth » Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:51 am

Blind groper wrote:Seth

Your libertarian utopia suffers from exactly the same problem as the communist utopia. That is : people do not behave that way.
Don't behave what way?
The communist ideal society has everyone giving what they can and taking what they need. Sadly, in reality, people take more than they need, and give less than they should. And so the communist ideal collapses in a screaming heap!
Indeed.
The libertarian ideal also requires people to behave properly, and they do not.
No it doesn't. What it does do is allow other people to shun those who don't behave properly rather than being required to support them as is the case in Communism, Socialism, Progressivism and every other welfare-state ideology that fails to account for normal human behavior. In no way does Libertarianism interfere with the right of the individual to enforce proper behavior, it simply does so slightly differently than you suggest. It does not call on "big government" to do the enforcing because creating the system to allow that to happen always and inevitably ends up as a corruptocrat tyranny.

It says that each individual in the society has the ultimate right to decide who to associate with and who not to associate with.

Take your suggestion that violence is only for self defense. Riiiight!
The truth is that every person has a different idea of what constitutes self defense.
So what? Make the right call and everything's fine, make the wrong call and you go to jail just like everyone on earth does today.
According to FBI figues, there are 4,000 murders each year in the USA that come from two people in a heated argument, and then one pulling out a hand gun and shooting the other one dead. I would be willing to bet that most of those murderers would claim it was self defense.
You'd lose that bet.
The problem, Seth, is that humans suffer from self delusion. They will do awful things and call it self defense.


Some do, most don't.
Being part of a libertarian society will not stop people doing that.
I never said it would.
Give everyone the means of killing, and a hell of a lot will do just that - kill!


Strangely, here in the US that is patently untrue as proven by the massive increase in gun ownership and the consistently falling violent crime and firearms accident rates.

The USA gives that means by allowing anyone to buy a hand gun (there are no restrictions on the second hand market), and there are 8,000 hand gun murders each year.
So what? All that means is that there are 8000 criminals killing people. You fail to note how many people were not killed because they had a hand gun or other firearm of some sort, which comes to somewhere between 80,000 and 2.5 million individuals who were not criminally victimized because they had a gun when they needed it, which gives us a minimum 10-to-1 ratio of positive effect to negative effect for private gun ownership.

Your libertarian utopia requires people to behave, and without coercion, people do not behave.
The question is who is doing the "coercion" and how they go about it and what the unintended consequences of creating a "big government" society where the use, and ability to use force is limited only to government agents, which inevitably, throughout history, ends up in despotic tyranny.

Libertarianism holds that the good individuals of society are perfectly capable of taking whatever action is needed, either collectively or individually, to prevent, dissuade and punish violent criminal conduct without giving some unaccountable group power over those who do not engage in such violence.

If I need a posse to ride out and hunt you down and bring you back for trial because you stuck up the liquor store, then I ask the members of the community to join me in the hunt and they either agree with me or they don't. If they don't, then perhaps my cause is not just in their eyes and I'm on my own. If they do, then there's consensus that you need to be held accountable for your actions before a judge and jury.

In that way we all exercise our unalienable right to enforce the law and keep the peace which today we delegate to the police, but when the incident is over and you've been judged and punished, we all go back to our normal lives and are not tempted to try to wield police authority over others merely because we've been given a badge and a gun. It also makes us consider carefully the situation so that we can decide if the magnitude of the crime is worth the time, effort and risk required to bring you to justice. In a Libertarian society, nobody gets killed for selling "loosies" on the street because no Libertarian gives a damn if you do or do not sell "untaxed" cigarettes because cigarettes wouldn't be taxed in the first place.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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