UK Revolution In Theory And Practice

PsychoSerenity
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Re: UK Revolution In Theory And Practice

Post by PsychoSerenity » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:38 pm

rEvolutionist wrote: This is why revolution is likely necessary. How do you imagine we will manage to tax people more? The reverse has been happening for 40 years. The political class and the corporate world is too entwined and entrenched to allow change. Already people's wishes regarding the environment, progressive taxation, open democracy, etc, are being thoroughly ignored by the political class. Incremental change in the progressive direction is almost certainly not going to happen. That's why revolution will probably ultimately be necessary.
I'm not so sure, - in Europe there is a lot of public pressure for tax justice which is starting to see policy discussion that could really tackle tax havens, and against the corporate power-grab trade deals like TTIP. And in the UK, especially in light of what the Tories have been up to, there are signs of a strong left wing re-growing.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: UK Revolution In Theory And Practice

Post by mistermack » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:39 pm

If you can get enough people to follow you to fight and overthrow the government, why the fuck can't you win an election?
The logic of the revolution argument is ridiculous.
In any country that has free and fair elections, it would be ludicrous to overthrow the very people that were fairly elected. Revolution only makes sense against non-democratic systems.

That's what's wrong with Ukraine, and why Putin had every right to put his oar in.
The revolution overturned the democracy. They couldn't win the election, so they took over Ukraine by force.
Do you think the elections are not fiddled now? If you do, you are incredibly gullible.
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Re: UK Revolution In Theory And Practice

Post by cronus » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:46 pm

mistermack wrote:If you can get enough people to follow you to fight and overthrow the government, why the fuck can't you win an election?
The logic of the revolution argument is ridiculous.
In any country that has free and fair elections, it would be ludicrous to overthrow the very people that were fairly elected. Revolution only makes sense against non-democratic systems.

That's what's wrong with Ukraine, and why Putin had every right to put his oar in.
The revolution overturned the democracy. They couldn't win the election, so they took over Ukraine by force.
Do you think the elections are not fiddled now? If you do, you are incredibly gullible.
Democracy is cool in good times. Anyone with over a few million dollars can be president in the US with it. Most people are thick cognitively challenged and elect the loudest voice rather than the smartest pilot when turbulence sets in. Revolutions are really arguments about who is flying the plane. Sometimes there is no time for a reasoned discussion. America would still be a British Colony and much much more screwed up without its first revolution. Saying that no one likes them really, don't need to be happening all the time. A young mans game these Revolution things. :read:
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Re: UK Revolution In Theory And Practice

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:47 pm

PsychoSerenity wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote: This is why revolution is likely necessary. How do you imagine we will manage to tax people more? The reverse has been happening for 40 years. The political class and the corporate world is too entwined and entrenched to allow change. Already people's wishes regarding the environment, progressive taxation, open democracy, etc, are being thoroughly ignored by the political class. Incremental change in the progressive direction is almost certainly not going to happen. That's why revolution will probably ultimately be necessary.
I'm not so sure, - in Europe there is a lot of public pressure for tax justice which is starting to see policy discussion that could really tackle tax havens, and against the corporate power-grab trade deals like TTIP. And in the UK, especially in light of what the Tories have been up to, there are signs of a strong left wing re-growing.
The only reason they are attacking tax havens is because each country is missing out on taxation revenue. There's no evidence anywhere of taxation being increased on the rich. It's just not going to happen.
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Re: UK Revolution In Theory And Practice

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:50 pm

mistermack wrote:If you can get enough people to follow you to fight and overthrow the government, why the fuck can't you win an election?
The logic of the revolution argument is ridiculous.
In any country that has free and fair elections, it would be ludicrous to overthrow the very people that were fairly elected. Revolution only makes sense against non-democratic systems.
I don't know why I am even bothering (perhaps for others reading)... But we don't have very democratic systems. If you read the various social surveys of what people want out of their society and their political systems you'll see that it is totally at odds with what the political system gives us. Media propaganda plays a huge part in this, as does the capitalist system of making people less and less secure so they don't have the time to research issues properly, or if they do they are too scared to vote against the status quo.
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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