Religiosity and impoverishment

[JimC]

I will gladly pay you later for a hamburger today...

It's "I will gladly pay you Wednesday for a hamburger today." Wimpy.

Yep, that's the one I was thinking of...

[Seabass]

It's Tuesday, damnit!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Wellington_Wimpy

[Seabass]

Let me make a point for Seabass and Seth. My comments here about religiosity and libertarianism are the result of reading the article in Skeptic magazine, in which the author ascribes the very poor rating of the USA to the strength of those two influences. I tend to agree with the author, but he is the one who carried out the detailed study, not me.

The reality is that Gregory Paul, the researcher, is himself American, and he is America's worst critic. Paul labels the USA as the most dysfunctional of the 17 western nations in his study. The factors involved include murder rates, teenage pregnancy rates, divorce rates, the rate of gonorrhea and syphilis, health care, longevity, the gap between rich and poor, and a number of other factors to the total of 24. The final score was as close to objective as the author could make it, using standard methods.

The author blames high levels of religiosity and libertarianism for the fact that the USA scores as highly dysfunctional.

If you disagree, perhaps you could suggest other causes.

Who's number 16, and why aren't you harping on them?

[Blind groper]

Seabass
For your information, about the result in the Successful Societies Scale, out of 17 western nations. This scale runs 0 to 9, with 9 being the best possible society.

17. USA at 2.8
16. Australia at 4.5
15. New Zealand at 4.8
14. Spain at 4.9
13. Ireland at 5.0
12. Italy and Austria equal at 5.1
10. Switzerland and Germany at 5.2
8. France at 5.2
7. Canada, England and Japan at 5.8
4. Netherlands at 6.2
3. Sweden at 6.8
2. Denmark at 7.0
1. Norway at 7.8

I think Norway may have a bit of an unfair advantage with its oil wealth. But, apart from Norway and the USA, the scores seems to be quite close.

[laklak]

So some dude constructs a test to show the U.S. at the bottom of the heap, and lo and behold, the U.S. is at the bottom of the heap. How surprising.

I could construct my own Successful Society test, with criteria like freedom to own firearms, percentage of billionaires, availability of cheap labor, loosely enforced immigration regulations, cheap fast food and the like, and the U.S. would be at the top of the heap.

So what does this guy's test prove, BG, other than his prejudices match yours?

[Tero]

Have the Heritage Foundation do the test, US will come on top. I think you just measure guns/citizen and the top number will get 10.

[Hermit]

I could construct my own Successful Society test, with criteria like freedom to own firearms, percentage of billionaires, availability of cheap labor, loosely enforced immigration regulations, cheap fast food and the like, and the U.S. would be at the top of the heap.

It's been done. The study was devised and conducted under the auspices of a foundation called Freedom House. Most of the foundation's funding comes from the CIA. Guess which nation was scientifically proven to be the best?

[laklak]

I'll go out on a limb and guess........the USA?

[Animavore]

Ha! Ireland's in something.

Fuck all of you.

[Hermit]

I'll go out on a limb and guess........the USA?

Not altogether a far fetched one. For a short while I used to read the Newsweek magazine. The right wing bias was too blatant for me, so I switched to reading Time. That seemed more liberal. Somewhere in the mid or late 70s an issue came out with a 16-page feature on that Freedom House study. I've not looked at that publication since, except once or twice in a dentist's or doctor's waiting room where the choice was to read either that or one filled with pictures of celebrities and reports of at what bar/ holiday resort they were spotted, and with whom.

[Seth]

So some dude constructs a test to show the U.S. at the bottom of the heap, and lo and behold, the U.S. is at the bottom of the heap. How surprising.

I could construct my own Successful Society test, with criteria like freedom to own firearms, percentage of billionaires, availability of cheap labor, loosely enforced immigration regulations, cheap fast food and the like, and the U.S. would be at the top of the heap.

So what does this guy's test prove, BG, other than his prejudices match yours?

It's exactly like the "studies" that show that nations without nationalized health care are at the bottom of the barrel medically, which is preposterously false when it comes to the United States, which has the finest, most advanced medical system on the planet, bar none. The "weighting" is deliberately designed to denigrate non-socialist countries, specifically the United States simply because it's not socialist enough.

[Blind groper]

Hmmmm

It may be my bias, but I do not think that having the most murders, the most teenage pregnancies, the most abortions, the most divorces, the most gonorrhea and syphilis, the highest percentage in prison, the biggest disparity between races arrested, lowest life expectancy, highest cost of health care, lowest economic growth, lowest voter turnout, and overall, the lowest score from 24 vital parameters, are exactly a recommendation. When Gregory Paul calls the USA dysfunctional, he is being accurate.

[Seabass]

Hmmmm

It may be my bias, but I do not think that having the most murders, the most teenage pregnancies, the most abortions, the most divorces, the most gonorrhea and syphilis, the highest percentage in prison, the biggest disparity between races arrested, lowest life expectancy, highest cost of health care, lowest economic growth, lowest voter turnout, and overall, the lowest score from 24 vital parameters, are exactly a recommendation. When Gregory Paul calls the USA dysfunctional, he is being accurate.

So, when can we expect you to start making countless threads about how shitty Australia and New Zealand are? They're second and third from the bottom, so surely they deserve some Groper hate too? Also, the 180 countries that didn't even make the list are apparently even shittier than the U.S., so you should probably start some hatefests for all those countries too. Go ahead. I'll wait.

[JimC]

Hmmmm

It may be my bias, but I do not think that having the most murders, the most teenage pregnancies, the most abortions, the most divorces, the most gonorrhea and syphilis, the highest percentage in prison, the biggest disparity between races arrested, lowest life expectancy, highest cost of health care, lowest economic growth, lowest voter turnout, and overall, the lowest score from 24 vital parameters, are exactly a recommendation. When Gregory Paul calls the USA dysfunctional, he is being accurate.

So, when can we expect you to start making countless threads about how shitty Australia and New Zealand are? They're second and third from the bottom, so surely they deserve some Groper hate too? Also, the 180 countries that didn't even make the list are apparently even shittier than the U.S., so you should probably start some hatefests for all those countries too. Go ahead. I'll wait.

Oz and NZ almost certainly deserve some valid criticism - I'm sure that much of our poor showing is down to our treatment of aborigines, and other problems we have as well. However, there is a pretty big gap between the US and the worst of the rest...

You do seem to have moved away from criticising the criteria the survey was based on...

As for the other countries, I'm sure most of them have huge problems, and would score poorly on many surveys. However, the countries in the comparison are a fair sample of modern, democratic countries with a wealthy, industrialised society. The issue really is that the US is so wealthy and developed in many ways, and yet there is this elephant in the room of massive social inequity and health problems...

[Seabass]

Hmmmm

It may be my bias, but I do not think that having the most murders, the most teenage pregnancies, the most abortions, the most divorces, the most gonorrhea and syphilis, the highest percentage in prison, the biggest disparity between races arrested, lowest life expectancy, highest cost of health care, lowest economic growth, lowest voter turnout, and overall, the lowest score from 24 vital parameters, are exactly a recommendation. When Gregory Paul calls the USA dysfunctional, he is being accurate.

So, when can we expect you to start making countless threads about how shitty Australia and New Zealand are? They're second and third from the bottom, so surely they deserve some Groper hate too? Also, the 180 countries that didn't even make the list are apparently even shittier than the U.S., so you should probably start some hatefests for all those countries too. Go ahead. I'll wait.

Oz and NZ almost certainly deserve some valid criticism - I'm sure that much of our poor showing is down to our treatment of aborigines, and other problems we have as well. However, there is a pretty big gap between the US and the worst of the rest...

None of this changes the fact that we never, ever hear any "criticism" of other countries from Groper. Not #16. Not #18. Not #15. Not #19. Not #56. Not #195. Only #17. Only the U.S. ALWAYS the U.S.

You do seem to have moved away from criticising the criteria the survey was based on...

Did you read my first two posts? I entered the discussion in earnest, but I quickly realized that trying to have a rational discussion with Groper about anything American is about as productive as trying to have a rational discussion about black people with Tyrannical.

ETA: I think you've confused me with Laklak. He's the one who criticized the criteria...

As for the other countries, I'm sure most of them have huge problems, and would score poorly on many surveys. However, the countries in the comparison are a fair sample of modern, democratic countries with a wealthy, industrialised society. The issue really is that the US is so wealthy and developed in many ways, and yet there is this elephant in the room of massive social inequity and health problems...

It seems a bit like shitting on an olympic bronze medalist for coming in last among medalists.


Rationalize all you want, but if Groper carried on about any other nationality the way he does about Merkins, more people would see him for the chauvinist that he is. But, Murika happens to be the current empire/superpower, so it's socially acceptable to hate Merkins. C'est la vie, huh.