Libertarianism

[Hermit]

Ah. Once again I copypaste from your own post, and once again you deny having written exactly what I copypasted.

Actually, you quote-mined, mendaciously leaving out the words "Using your definition,..." and then you attempted to derail the discussion by tangenting off into irrelevancies.

Look at the bit I bolded. Read the first three words of what I quoted.

But, yes, you are right. I misread the intent of your post. I should have addressed MrJonno's crap instead. Society and via governments are not the sole definition of what is 'right' or 'wrong'. Even so, you clearly implied that the Nazi Holocaust was the result of the majority at the time, and that too is manifestly rubbish. So once again, things are not writ black and white.

[MrJonno]

Society and via governments are not the sole definition of what is 'right' or 'wrong

Where else then?

god
'human nature'
dead people

It is blatantly obvious that bar a few mentally ill people everyone thinks they are right and good no matter what actions they take. Often these concepts of right and wrong are diametrically opposed so the only way for society to function is via government enforced laws that may be a head count on opinions of right or wrong or simply a dictatorship but either way its still government/society not anything absolute.

If society thinks that being left handed is evil and killing all left handed people is good then that's your definition of good simple as that (I'm left handed). Such societies aren't going to last very long probably wiped out by societies that define good as not killing left handed people

[Gallstones]

StatistsClap.jpg (68.44 KiB) Viewed 1338 times

[Seth]

Ah. Once again I copypaste from your own post, and once again you deny having written exactly what I copypasted.

Actually, you quote-mined, mendaciously leaving out the words "Using your definition,..." and then you attempted to derail the discussion by tangenting off into irrelevancies.

Look at the bit I bolded. Read the first three words of what I quoted.

But, yes, you are right. I misread the intent of your post. I should have addressed MrJonno's crap instead. Society and via governments are not the sole definition of what is 'right' or 'wrong'. Even so, you clearly implied that the Nazi Holocaust was the result of the majority at the time, and that too is manifestly rubbish. So once again, things are not writ black and white.

The majority could have risen up in arms and put Hitler down, but didn't. Most Germans studiously ignored the evidence right up until American commanders forced them to bury tens of thousands of starved corpses of Jews. And of course the first thing Hitler did was to register all firearms....for later confiscation...saying that Germans didn't need guns to protect themselves because the Reich would keep them safe...well, except for those German Jews, and homosexuals, and, well, you get the drift.

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

[Tero]

Ah. Hitler was about guns. Jews were about guns. Israel, Putin and Syria are about guns. And Putin also nuclear weapons.

You could write another Guns germs and steel book, Seth: Guns, guns and more guns.

[MrJonno]

And of course the first thing Hitler did was to register all firearms....for later confiscation.

Actually the first thing he did was liberalise gun laws, you know who actually introduced tough anti-gun laws in Germany the US (and the UK) in 1945. It's almost like the Americans thought not having the general public carrying firearms was a good idea

[Seth]

And of course the first thing Hitler did was to register all firearms....for later confiscation.

Actually the first thing he did was liberalise gun laws

I don't know what alternate universe you live in, but it sure ain't this one.

you know who actually introduced tough anti-gun laws in Germany the US (and the UK) in 1945. It's almost like the Americans thought not having the general public carrying firearms was a good idea

Probably something to do with the fact that they were our recently-defeated enemy responsible as a nation for the deaths of uncounted millions of people and had forfeited any right to keep and bear arms at the time by their warlike and genocidal actions.

[MrJonno]

Probably something to do with the fact that they were our recently-defeated enemy responsible as a nation for the deaths of uncounted millions of people and had forfeited any right to keep and bear arms at the time by their warlike and genocidal actions.

But the army had already surrendered why would the public have to surrender firearms if Hitler hadnt allowed them to have loads in the first place

[Hermit]

Crap anyway. Hitler would not have gained power without two militias, the Freikorps and his own Sturmabteilung. So much for a well regulated militia ensuring the security of a free State and the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

[MrJonno]

Exactly Hitler came to power due to an incredibly weak government (that the Allies from WW1 shared a responsibility in creating). If there are any lessons to be learnt from that period is society should not tolerate armed militia if it wants to avoid tryanny

[Seth]

Crap anyway. Hitler would not have gained power without two militias, the Freikorps and his own Sturmabteilung. So much for a well regulated militia ensuring the security of a free State and the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

There are good militias and bad militias. The point of an entirely armed citizenry is that it is presumed that there will always be more good people with arms who will rise up to put down a tyrant than bad people who support him, unless the entire culture is corrupt and evil, like radical Islam.

It is the fact that Hitler registered, regulated and confiscated small arms from the citizenry (particularly the Jews) that made it possible for his own militias (brownshirts) to take control. Of course there is also the matter of German cultural sentiment and inbred obedience to authority that allowed Hitler the demagogue to rise to power without significant resistance, but it is the lack of effective arms in the hands of the citizenry at large that allows small numbers of well-armed minions of the tyrant to take and consolidate power. And that is precisely why the 2nd Amendment exists, because the Founders knew this perfectly well, having just fought a bitter war with King George over exactly the same thing.

Germany did not learn our lesson when it could have, and millions died as a direct result of disarming the citizenry.

[Hermit]

Crap anyway. Hitler would not have gained power without two militias, the Freikorps and his own Sturmabteilung. So much for a well regulated militia ensuring the security of a free State and the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

There are good militias and bad militias. The point of an entirely armed citizenry is that it is presumed that there will always be more good people with arms who will rise up to put down a tyrant than bad people who support him, unless the entire culture is corrupt and evil, like radical Islam.

Lol. What a presumption.

It is the fact that Hitler registered, regulated and confiscated small arms from the citizenry (particularly the Jews) that made it possible for his own militias (brownshirts) to take control.

Factually incorrect. Hitler came to power before he registered, regulated and confiscated small arms from the citizenry.

[Hermit]

Libertarian Billionaire Plans Artificial Island Utopia – Like That’ll Ever Work
Author: Nathaniel Downes September 27, 2014 5:53 pm

The idea of a “Libertarian nation” has been floated for centuries. Yet, every time it is attempted, the results quickly disintegrate into anarchy or despotism. It does not matter how often they proclaim that it will work, it never does. The real world always hits them over the head with a clue-by-four.

Yet, here comes another attempt, another statement that it will work “this time,” coming from PayPal cofounder Peter Thiel. His solution to making it work now is building artificial living spaces off-shore, in international waters, so as to avoid any pesky regulations. Of course, the idea of owning a residence which is not on dry land is not a new idea, as residential cruise ship MS The World demonstrates. Mr. Thiel’s proposal pushes this to the next level, beyond even the ill-fated Freedom Ship, which has been little more than concept animation for over a decade with no real development underway.

The attraction for libertarians is the perception that they would have no regulation, no laws to restrict them, and what they consider freedom. By the use of technologies derived from oil platforms, the reality is that it is more than technologically doable. But would a libertarian utopia function for long?

The reason why MS The World endures is partially because while at sea, the Captain is an absolute authority, a dictatorship, per the law of the sea. While on port, it has to follow the laws of the nation it is visiting. A floating island nation would have no such safety framework in place. Instead, it would have to set up its own government and organization, just like the failed Galts Gulch Chile did.

A better example would be the ill-fated “Operation Atlantis” of Werner Steifel. His dream of a pure Libertarian paradise sank, literally, after the seagoing vessel he had built, Atlantis 2, failed to be properly maintained or even run with any competence. It capsized several times, kept having issues of icing, and eventually sank after encountering a hurricane. Libertarian values rejected those pesky regulations about ship construction methods, weather maps, or using government services like weather reports.

Then there is Michael J. Oliver’s Republic of Minerva, which was an ambitious plan to convert miles of reefs into an island nation. With absolutely no taxation, it relied upon voluntary donations to operate. This turned out to be a bad idea when Tonga decided on invading, conquering the fledgling nation almost overnight. Being a volunteer state leaves one wanting for military defense it turned out.

The closest which the Libertarians can point to a true “Libertarian Utopia” it turns out can be found in the now torn-down Kowloon Walled City, a small area of Hong Kong which had absolutely no regulations, laws, or rules. Due to the lack of regulations, eventually over 30,000 people called the area home, just under 6.5 acres, with the result being overcrowding, crime, and illicit activity. Opium dens, prostitution, unlicensed medicine, unsafe construction methods, the small city-within-a-city was a death trap just waiting to happen. And that is precisely what Mr. Thiel’s dream will become should it happen.

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